Please people, do not treat Richard Hannania as some sort of worthy figure who is a friend of EA. He was a Nazi, and whilst he claims he moderated his views, he is still very racist as far as I can tell.
Hannania called for trying to get rid of all non-white immigrants in the US, and the sterilization of everyone with an IQ under 90 indulged in antisemitic attacks on the allegedly Jewish elite, and even post his reform was writing about the need for the state to harass and imprison Black people specifically (âa revolution in our culture or form of government. We need more policing, incarceration, and surveillance of black peopleâ https://ââen.wikipedia.org/ââwiki/ââRichard_Hanania). Yet in the face of this, and after he made an incredibly grudging apology about his most extreme stuff (after journalists dug it up), heâs been invited to Manifioldâs events and put on Richard Yetter Chappelâs blogroll.
DO NOT DO THIS. If you want people to distinguish benign transhumanism (which I agree is a real thing*) from the racist history of eugenics, do not fail to shun actual racists and Nazis. Likewise, if you want to promote âdecouplingâ factual beliefs from policy recommendations, which can be useful, do not duck and dive around the fact that virtually every major promoter of scientific racism ever, including allegedly mainstream figures like Jensen, worked with or published with actual literal Nazis (https://ââwww.splcenter.org/ââfighting-hate/ââextremist-files/ââindividual/ââarthur-jensen).
I love most of the people I have met through EA, and I know that-despite what some people say on twitter- we are not actually a secret crypto-fascist movement (nor is longtermism specifically, which whether you like it or not, is mostly about what its EA proponents say it is about.) But there is in my view a disturbing degree of tolerance for this stuff in the community, mostly centered around the Bay specifically. And to be clear I am complaining about tolerance for people with far-right and fascist (âreactionaryâ or whatever) political views, not people with any particular personal opinion on the genetics of intelligence. A desire for authoritarian government enforcing the ânaturalâ racial hierarchy does not become okay, just because you met the person with the desire at a house party and they seemed kind of normal and chill or super-smart and nerdy.
I usually take a way more measured tone on the forum than this, but here I think real information is given by getting shouty.
*Anyone who thinks it is automatically far-right to think about any kind of genetic enhancement at all should go read some Culture novels, and note the implied politics (or indeed, look up the authorâs actual die-hard libertarian socialist views.) I am not claiming that far-left politics is innocent, just that it is not racist.
Iâd just like to clarify that my blogroll should not be taken as a list of âworthy figure[s] who [are] friend[s] of EAâ! Theyâre just blogs I find often interesting and worth reading. No broader moral endorsement implied!
I have little patience with polite society, its inconsistencies in which views are and are not acceptable, and its games of tug-of-war with the Overton Window. My own standards are strict and idiosyncratic. If I held everyone to them, Iâd live in a lonely world, one that would exclude many my own circles approve of. And if you wonder whether I approve of something, Iâm always happy to chat.
I find it so maddeningly short-sighted to praise a white supremacist for being ârespectfulâ. White supremacists are not respectful to non-white people! Expand your moral circle!
A recurring problem I find with replies to criticism of associating with white supremacist figures like Hanania is a complete failure to empathize with or understand (or perhaps to care?) why people are so bothered by white supremacy. Implied in white supremacy is the threat of violence against non-white people. Dehumanizing language is intimately tied to physical violence against the people being dehumanized.
White supremacist discourse is not merely part of some kind of entertaining parlour room conversation. Itâs a bullet in a gun.
fyi, I weakly downvoted this because (i) you seem like youâre trying to pick a fight and I donât think itâs productive; there are familiar social ratcheting effects that incentivize exaggerated rhetoric on race and gender online, and I donât think we should encourage that. (There was nothing in my comment that invited this response.) (ii) I think youâre misrepresenting Trace. (iii) The âexpand your moral circleâ comment implies, falsely, that the only reason one could have for tolerating someone with bad views is that you donât care about those harmed by their bad views.
I did not mean the reference to Trace to function as a conversation opener. (Quite the opposite!) Iâve now edited my original comment to clarify the relevant portion of the tweet. But if anyone wants to disagree with Trace, maybe start a new thread for that rather than replying to me. Thanks!
If white supremacists are by definition non-respectful to non-white people, and Hanania appears fairly respectful to non-white people, perhaps that allows us to conclude that Hanania does not, in fact, qualify for your definition of âwhite supremacistâ?
The comment youâre replying to has somewhat sloppy language and reasoning. Unfortunately your comment managed to be even worse.
If white supremacists are by definition non-respectful to non-white people, and Hanania appears fairly respectful to non-white people, perhaps that allows us to conclude that Hanania does not, in fact, qualify for your definition of âwhite supremacistâ?
This line of reasoning is implausible. If having a single nonwhite person over on a podcast without being rude is strong evidence against white supremacy, trusting nonwhite people enough to ally with you in a war is surely even better evidence.
The literal historical Nazis allied in a literal war with literal historical Imperial Japan (a country which is mostly nonwhite). While I donât personally like to throw around phrases like âwhite supremacyâ very often, I think reasonable people can agree that Nazis are white supremacists.
This line of reasoning is implausible. If having a single nonwhite person over on a podcast without being rude is strong evidence against white supremacy, trusting nonwhite people enough to ally with you in a war is surely even better evidence.
The literal historical Nazis allied in a literal war with literal historical Imperial Japan (a country which is mostly nonwhite). While I donât personally like to throw around phrases like âwhite supremacyâ very often, I think reasonable people can agree that Nazis are white supremacists.
I think you must have missed the âIfâ clause at the beginning of my comment, or the reference to âyour definitionâ in my sentence.
Iâm not sure how much simpler I can make this, but Iâll give it a try.
Either disrespect towards non-white people is characteristic of white supremacy, or it is not. (Law of the excluded middle.)
If it is, then by conservation of expected evidence, respect towards non-white people is limited evidence against white supremacy.
If it is not, then Yarrowâs original claim âWhite supremacists are not respectful to non-white people!â would appear to be false.
So, it sounds like maybe youâre trying to argue against Yarrowâs original claim that âWhite supremacists are not respectful to non-white people!â, by giving the concrete example of Nazis respecting their Imperial Japanese allies? Thatâs the simplest way for me to read what you wrote.
This entire thread just demonstrates how confused and useless it is to argue âby definitionâ, or argue about term definitions. Set aside all word-definition disputes for a minute: The relevant question was whether Richard Hanania is a bad person to invite to conferences because heâll be disrespectful to non-white people. Respectful interactions with a non-white podcast guest are perfectly good, if limited, evidence pertaining to that question. Can we agree on that, at least?
Espousing white supremacist views is in itself disrespectful to non-white people, regardless of whether the white supremacist sometimes has polite and cordial conversations on topics unrelated to race and racism with non-white people.
Well, your original statement was: âWhite supremacists are not respectful to non-white people!â I suppose I mustâve misinterpreted youâI interpreted it to mean that you thought Hanania would be disrespectful to non-white conference attendees in a conference social setting.
When someone is pushing for our society to destroy, oppress, enslave, or exile millions of human beings, whether they mask their hatred with a veneer of politeness is not really the crux of the matter. It is extremely alienating and hostile to the people they hate and are seeking to severely harm to in any way endorse, promote, normalize, or empower them. That would include inviting them to a conference.
This entire thread just demonstrates how confused and useless it is to argue âby definitionâ, or argue about term definitions.
You keep inserting words into peopleâs mouths lmao. Nobody said âby definitionâ before you did. (Control-F for âby definitionâ if you donât believe me).
I did not miss your âif.â I didnât think it was necessary to go into the semantics dive because I thought the analogy would be relatively clear. Let me try again:
In general, when someone says X group is Y, a reasonable interpretation is that members of X group are more likely to be Y. If you are being Gricean, somebody saying A is a member of X implies that they think A is a fairly central member of X and thus are more likely to exhibit Y.
In colloquial English, âX is Yâ almost never means âif X, then Y, for all values of X and Yâ. Eg, if somebody said âmen are taller than womenâ you should take this as a claim about statistical averages, not a claim that all men are taller than all women.
Similarly, if you see someone say something like âNazis are disrespectful to nonwhitesâ you should interpret this as a claim that Nazis are on average significantly less respectful to nonwhites than other people would be to nonwhites. If you assume someoneâs being Gricean when they said that, you might further assume that they believe that the specific Nazi theyâre referring to exhibits similar behaviors to other Nazis on at least this dimension.
You should not interpret it as âevery single Nazi is disrespectful to every single nonwhite person, in every case and in full generality.â I donât think this is difficult. I donât think youâd genuinely object to a claim âNazis are disrespectful to nonwhites,â despite cases like allying with Imperial Japan, or adopting a swastika from Indian culture, or John Rabe. Even if the Nazis writ large made an entire exception for an entire ethnicity of people (eg suppose they were never disrespectful to the Japanese), Iâd still consider the basic claim âNazis are disrespectful to nonwhitesâ to be approximately correct, and would not go all out of my way to continuously correct every incidence of that remark with âNazis are disrespectful to nonwhites who are not Japanese.â[1]
Analogies aside, letâs go back to Yarrowâs original claim:
I find it so maddeningly short-sighted to praise a white supremacist for being ârespectfulâ. White supremacists are not respectful to non-white people!
I think your attempt at a gotcha fails. For the same reason that itâs reasonable for someone to say men are taller than women without being immediately disproven as soon as you find a woman whoâs taller than a man, or that Nazis are disrespectful of nonwhites despite allying with Japan.
Before writing angry/âinflammatory replies, I recommend reading the actual text.
Some examples of Hananiaâs endorsement of white supremacist views and organizations, from an article in the Huffington Post:
Richard Hanania, a visiting scholar at the University of Texas, used the pen name âRichard Hosteâ in the early 2010s to write articles where he identified himself as a ârace realist.â He expressed support for eugenics and the forced sterilization of âlow IQâ people, who he argued were most often Black. He opposed âmiscegenationâ and ârace-mixing.â And once, while arguing that Black people cannot govern themselves, he cited the neo-Nazi author of âThe Turner Diaries,â the infamous novel that celebrates a future race war.
Hoste [a pen name for Hanania] wrote for antisemitic outlets like The Occidental Observer, a site that once argued Jews are trying to exterminate white Americans. He wrote for Counter-Currents, which advocates for creating a whites-only ethnostate; Takiâs Magazine, a far-right hub for paleoconservatives; and VDare, a racist anti-immigrant blog.
In 2010, Hoste was among the first writers to be recruited for AlternativeRight.com, a new webzine spearheaded and edited by Richard Spencer, the white supremacist leader who later organized the deadly 2017 neo-Nazi rally in Charlottesville, Virginia.
Hispanic people, he wrote in a 2010 article in Counter-Currents, âdonât have the requisite IQ to be a productive part of a first world nation.â He then made an argument for ethnic cleansing, writing that âthe ultimate goal should be to get all the post-1965 non-White migrants from Latin America to leave.â
âIf we want to defend our liberty and property, a low-IQ group of a different race sharing the same land is a permanent antagonist,â he wrote.
He lamented what he saw as the growing preponderance of âmiscegenation,â or white and Black people dating each other. âFor the white gene pool to be created millions had to die,â Hoste wrote once. âRace mixing is like destroying a unique species or piece of art. Itâs shameful.â
Hosteâs racism was also evinced by the writers he chose to cite. In a 2010 article on AlternativeRight.com, Hoste described learning about a December 1997 speech by William Pierce called âThe Lesson of Haiti.â
Hoste linked to a transcript of Pierceâs speech, without acknowledging who Pierce was: the leader and founder of the National Alliance, a violent neo-Nazi group, and the author of a novel called âThe Turner Diaries,â a murderous race war fantasy that has inspired multiple white supremacist terrorists, including Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh.
Hosteâs article on AlternativeRight.com was basically a recapitulation of Pierceâs speech about Haiti, recounting how a British explorer in the early 20th century traversed the country to answer the question, âCan the Negro rule himself?â The explorer had come to the racist conclusion that no, Black people cannot govern themselves â a conclusion that delighted Pierce in 1997 and seemingly energized Hoste in 2010.
âThe biggest enemies of the Black Man are not Klansmen or multinational corporations, but the liberals who have prevented an honest appraisal of his abilities and filled his head with myths about equality and national autarky,â Hoste wrote.
As far as I can tell, thereâs no disagreement in this thread that Hanania held some repugnant views in the early 2010s. In terms of deciding whether to shun him in the present, it seems like the key issues are
(a) what the statue of limitations should be
and
(b) whether he said something repugnant recently enough that the statue of limitations would not apply
Perhaps you believe that Hananiaâs early-2010s comments somehow reveal a âmore authenticâ version of his beliefs that heâs hiding from the public nowadays. That seems unlikely to me, given the more recent posts of his that I linked elsewhere in this thread. If he still held his early-2010s beliefs secretly, I donât think he would argue against them so explicitly now.
Even the Hanania article you linked to entitled âDiversity Is Our Strengthâ contains as one of its core arguments the suggestion that Hispanic immigrants might be won over to his support for âwar with civil rights lawâ by âcomparing them favorably to genderfluid liberals and urban blacksâ.
The next sentence links to one of his own tweets about how âselling immigrants on hating liberals would be the easiest thing in the worldâ, featuring a video of Muslims protesting in favour of LGBT book bans.
Perhaps you donât find this style of politics repugnant, perhaps it even represents a marginal improvement on his prior beliefs, but I donât think itâs one EA should be endorsing.
Just to expand on the above, Iâve written a new blog postâItâs OK to Read Anyoneâthat explains (i) why I wonât personally engage in intellectual boycotts [obviously the situation is different for organizations, and Iâm happy for them to make their own decisions!], and (ii) what it is in Hananiaâs substack writing that I personally find valuable and worth recommending to other intellectuals.
Your comment seems a bit light on citations, and didnât match my impression of Hanania after spending 10s of hours reading his stuff. Iâve certainly never seen him advocate for an authoritarian government as a means of enforcing a ânaturalâ racial hierarchy. This claim stood out to me:
Hannania called for trying to get rid of all non-white immigrants in the US
Hanania wrote this post in 2023. Itâs the first hit on his substack search for âimmigrationâ. This apparent lack of fact-checking makes me doubt the veracity of your other claims.
It seems like this is your only specific citation:
a revolution in our culture or form of government. We need more policing, incarceration, and surveillance of black people
This appears to be a falsified quote. [CORRECTION: The quote appears here on Hananiaâs Twitter. Thanks David. Iâm leaving the rest of my comment as originally written, since I think it provides some valuable context.] Search for âwe need moreâ on Wikipediaâs second citation. The actual quote is as follows:
...actually solving our crime problem to any serious extent would take a revolution in our culture or system of government. Whether you want to focus on guns or the criminals themselves, it would involve heavily policing, surveilling, and incarcerating more black people. If any part of you is uncomfortable with policies that have an extreme disparate impact, you donât have the stomach for what it would take.
This paragraph, from the same post, is useful context:
As I argue in my articles on El Salvador, any polity that has a high enough murder rate needs to make solving crime its number one priority. This was true for that nation before Bukele came along, as it is for major American cities today. Itâs not a big mystery how to do this, itâs just politically difficult, because literally everything that works is considered racist. You need more cops, more prisons, and more use of DNA databases and facial recognition technology. You canât have concerns about disparate impact in a world where crime is so overwhelmingly committed by one group.
Hanania has stated elsewhere that heâs a fan of Bukele and his policies. Hananiaâs position appears to be that since St Louis has a murder rate comparable to El Salvador when Bukele took power, St Louis could benefit from Bukele-style policies, but that would require stuff that liberals donât like. Wikipedia makes it sound like antipathy towards Black people is his explicit motive, but thatâs not how I understood him. It might be his implicit motive, but that could be true for anyoneâmaybe liberals prefer soft-on-crime policies because high crime keeps Black people in poverty. Who knows.
If you want to convince me that Hanania is a current-Nazi, letâs discuss the single worst thing he said recently under his real name, and we can see if the specific quote holds up to scrutiny in context.
[EDIT: To be clear, if you want to exclude Hanania because you think he is kinda sketchy, or was a bad person in the past, or is too willing to make un-PC factual claims, that may be a reasonable position. Iâm arguing against excluding him on the basis that heâs a Nazi, because I donât think that is currently true. His 2023 post advocating for racially diverse immigration to the US seems like a very straightforward disproof. If you manage to get Wikipedia to cite it, Iâll be impressed, by the way.]
I think the comments here are ignoring a perfectly sufficient reason to not, eg, invite him to speak at an EA adjacent conference. If I understand correctly, he consistently endorsed white supremacy for several years as a pseudonymous blogger.
Effective Altruism has grown fairly popular. We do not have a shortage of people who have heard of us and are willing to speak at conferences. We can afford to apply a few filtering criteria that exclude otherwise acceptable speakers.
âZero articles endorsing white supremacyâ is one such useful filter.
I predict that people considering joining or working with us would sometimes hear about speakers whoâd once endorsed white supremacy, and be seriously concerned. Iâd put not-insignificant odds that the number that back off because of this would reduce the growth of the movement by over 10%. We can and should prefer speakers who donât bring this potential problem.
A few clarifications follow:
-Nothing about this relies on his current views. He could be a wonderful fluffy bunny of a person today, and it would all still apply. Doesnât sound like the consensus in this thread, but itâs not relevant.
-This does not mean anyone needs to spurn him, if they think heâs a good enough person now. Of course he can reform! I wouldnât ask that he sew a scarlet letter into his clothing or become unemployable or be cast into the outer darkness. But, it doesnât seem unreasonable to say that past actions as a public thinker can impact your future as a public thinker. I sure hope he wouldnât hold it against people that he gets fewer speaking invitations despite reforming.
-I donât see this as a slippery slope towards becoming a close-minded community. The views he held would have been well outside the Overton window of any EA space Iâve been in, to the best of my knowledge. There were multiple such views, voiced seriously and consistently. Bostromâs ill-advised email is not a good reason to remove him from lists of speakers, and Hananiaâs multi-year advocacy of racist ideas is a good reason. There will be cases that require careful analysis, but I think both of these cases are extreme enough to be fairly clear-cut.
Manifold invited people based on having advocated for prediction markets, which is a much stricter criterion than being a generic public speaker that feels positively about your organization. With a smaller pool of speakers, it is not trivially cheap to apply filters, so it is not as clear cut as I claimed. (I could have found out this detail before writing, and I feel embarrassed that I didnât.)
Despite having an EA in a leadership role and ample EA-adjacent folks that associate with it, Manifold doesnât consider itself EA-aligned. It sucks that potential EAâs will sometimes mistake non-EAâs for EAâs, but it is important to respect it when a group tells the wider EA community that we arenât their real dad and canât make requests. (This does not appear to have been common knowledge so I feel less embarrassed about this one.)
Thank you. Is your thought that ârevolution in our culture or system of governmentâ is supposed to be a call for some kind of fascist revolution? My take is, like a lot of right-leaning people, Hanania sees progressive influence as deep and pervasive in almost all American institutions. From this perspective, a priority on fighting crime even when it means heavily disparate impact looks like a revolutionary change.
Hanania has been pretty explicit about his belief that liberal democracy is generally the best form of governmentâsee this post for example. If he was crypto-fash, I think he would just not publish posts like that.
BTW, I donât agree with Hanania on everything⊠for example, the âsome humans are in a very deep sense better than other humansâ line from the post I just linked sketches me out someâit seems to conflate moral value with ability. I find Hanania interesting reading, but the idea that EA should distance itself from him on the margin seems like something a reasonable person could believe. I think it comes down to your position in the larger debate over whether EA should prioritize optics vs intellectual vibrancy.
Here is another recent post (titled âShut up About Race and IQâ) that I struggle to imagine a crypto-Nazi writing. E.g. these quotes:
The fact that individuals donât actually care all that much about their race or culture is why conservatives are always so angry and trying to pass laws to change their behavior⊠While leftists often wish humans were more moral than they actually are, right-wing identitarians are unique in wishing they were worse.
...
People who get really into group differences and put it at the center of their politics donât actually care all that much about the science. I think for the most part they just think foreigners and other races are icky. They therefore latch on to group differences as a way to justify what they want for tribal or aesthetic reasons.
On one hand, some of his past views were pretty terrible (even though I believe that youâve exaggerated the extent of these views).
On the other hand, he is also one of the best critics of conservatives. Take for example, this article where he tells conservatives to stop being idiots who believe random conspiracy theories and another where he tells them to stop scamming everyone. These are amazing, brilliant articles with great chutzpah. As someone quite far to the right, heâs able to make these points far more credibly than a moderate or liberal ever could.
So I guess I feel heâs kind of a necessary voice, at least at this particular point in time when there are few alternatives.
Iâd like to give some context for why I disagree.
Yes, Richard Hanania is pretty racist. His views have historically been quite repugnant, and heâs admitted that âI truly sucked back thenâ. However, I think EA causes are more important than political differences. Itâs valuable when Hanania exposes the moral atrocity of factory farming and defends EA to his right-wing audience. If weâre being scope-sensitive, I think we have a lot more in common with Hanania on the most important questions than we do on political issues.
I also think Hanania has excellent takes on most issues, and thatâs because heâs the most intellectually honest blogger Iâve encountered. I think Hanania likes EA because heâs willing to admit that heâs imperfect, unlike EAâs critics who would rather feel good about themselves than actually help others.
More broadly, I think we could be doing more to attract people who donât hold typical Bay Area beliefs. Just 3% of EAs identify as right wing. I think there are several reasons why, all else equal, it would be better to have more political diversity:
In this era of political polarization, It would be a travesty for EA issues to become partisan.
All else equal, political diversity is good for community epistemics. In that regard, it should be encouraged for much the same reason that cultural and racial diversity are encouraged.
If we want EA to be a global social movement, we need to show that one can be EA even if they hold beliefs on other issues we find repugnant. I live in Panama for my job. When I arrived here, I had a culture shock from how backwards many peopleâs views are on racism and sexism. If we canât be friends with the person next door with bad views, how are we going to make allies globally?
Being âpretty racistâ with a past history of being even worse is not a mere âpolitical issue.â
I donât see how the proposition that Hanania has agreeable views on some issues, like factory farming contradicts Davidâs position that we should not treat him âas some sort of worthy figureâ and (impliedly) that we should not platform him at our events or on our blogrolls.
There is a wide gap between the proposition that EA should seek to attract more âpeople who donât hold typical Bay Area beliefsâ (I agree) and that EA should seek to attract people by playing nice with those like Hanania.
Among other things, the fact is that you canât create a social movement that can encompass 100% of humanity. You canât both be welcoming to people who hold âpretty racistâ views and to the targets of their racism. And if you start welcoming in the pretty-racist, youâre at least risking the downward spiral of having more racism-intolerant people like --> more openness to racism --> more departures from those intolerant to racism --> soon, youâve got a whole lot of racism going on.
But I think that the modern idea that itâs good policy to âshunâ people who express wrong (or heartless, or whatever) views is totally wrong, and is especially inappropriate for EA in practice, the impact of which has largely been due to unusual people with unusual views.
Why move from âwrong or heartlessâ to âunusual people with unusual viewsâ? None of the people who were important to EA historically have had hateful or heartless-and-prejudiced views (or, if someone had them secretly, at least they didnât openly express it). It would also be directly opposed to EA core principles (compassion, equal consideration of interests).
Whether someone speaks at Manifest (or is on a blogroll, or whatever) should be about whether they are going to give an interesting talk to Manifest, not because of their general moral character.
I think sufficiently shitty character should be disqualifying. I agree with you insofar that, if someone has ideas that seem worth discussing, I can imagine a stance of âweâre talking to this person in a moderated setting to hear their ideas,â but Iâd importantly caveat it by making sure to also expose their shittiness. In other words, I think platforming a person who promotes a dangerous ideology (or, to give a different example, someone who has a tendency to form mini-cults around them that predictably harm some of the people they come into contact with) isnât necessarily wrong, but it comes with a specific responsibility. What would be wrong is implicitly conveying that the person youâre platforming is vetted/ânormal/âharmless, when they actually seem dangerous. If someone actually seems dangerous, make sure that, if you do decide to platform them (presumably because you think they also have some good/âimportant things to say), others wonât come away with the impression that you donât think theyâre dangerous.
Why move from âwrong or heartlessâ to âunusual people with unusual viewsâ?
I believe these two things:
A) People donât have very objective moral intuitions, so there isnât widespread agreement on what views are seriously wrong.
B) Unusual people typically come by their unusual views by thinking in some direction that is not socially typical, and then drawing conclusions that make sense to them.
So if you are a person who does B, you probably donât and shouldnât have confidence that many other people wonât find your views to be seriously wrong. So a productive intellectual community that wants to hear things you have to say, should be prepared to tolerate views that seem seriously wrong, perhaps with some caveats (e.g. that they are the sort of view that a person might honestly come by, as opposed to something invented simply maliciously.)
None of the people who were important to EA historically have had hateful or heartless-and-prejudiced views (or, if someone had them secretly, at least they didnât openly express it).
I think this is absolutely false. A kind of obvious example (to many, since as above, people do not unanimously agree on what is hateful) is that famous Nick Bostrom email about racial differences. Another example to many is the similar correspondence from Scott Alexander. Another example would be Zack Davisâs writing on transgender identity. Another example would be Peter Singerâs writing on disability. Another example would be this post arguing in favor of altruistic eugenics. These are all views that many people who are even very culturally close to the authors (e.g. modern Western intellectuals) would consider hateful and wrong.
Of course, having views that substantially different cultures would consider hateful and wrong is so commonplace that I hardly need to give any examples. Many of my extended family members consider the idea that abortion is permissible to be hateful and wrong. I consider their views, in addition to many of their other religious views, to be hateful and wrong. And I donât believe that either of us have come by our views particularly unreasonably.
What would be wrong is implicitly conveying that the person youâre platforming is vetted/ânormal/âharmless, when they actually seem dangerous.
Perhaps this is an important crux. If a big conference is bringing a bunch of people to give talks that the speakers are individually responsible for, I personally would infer ~zero vetting or endorsement, and I would judge each talk with an open mind. (I think I am correct to do this, because little vetting is in fact done; the large conferences I have been familiar with hunt for speakers based on who they think will draw crowds, e.g. celebrities and people with knowledge and power, not because they agree with the contents of talks.) So if this is culturally ambiguous it would seem fine to clarify.
I think this is just naive. People pay money and spend their precious time to go to these conferences. If you invite a racist, the effect will be twofold:
More racists will come to your conference.
more minorities, and people sympathetic to minorities, will stay home.
When this second group stays home (as is their right), they take their bold and unusual ideas with them.
By inviting a racist, you are not selecting for âbold and unusual ideasâ. You are selecting for racism.
And yes, a similar dynamic will play out with many controversial ideas. Which is why you need to exit the meta level, and make deliberate choices about which ideas you want to keep, and which groups of people you are okay with driving away. This also comes with a responsibility to treat said topics with appropriate levels of care and consideration, something that, for example, Bostrom failed horribly at.
I feel like youâre trying to equivocate âwrong or heartlessâ (or âheartless-and-prejudiced,â as I called it elsewhere) with âsocially provocativeâ or âcauses outrage to a subset of readers.â
That feels like misdirection.
I see two different issues here:
(1) Are some ideas that cause social backlash still valuable?
(2) Are some ideas shitty and worth condemning?
My answer is yes to both.
When someone expresses a view that belongs into (2), pointing at the existence of (1) isnât a good defense.
You may be saying that we should be humble and canât tell the difference, but I think we can. Moral relativism sucks.
FWIW, if I thought we couldnât tell the difference, then it wouldnât be obvious to me that we should go for âcondemn pretty much nothingâ as opposed to âcondemn everything that causes controversy.â Both of these seem equally extremely bad.
I see that youâre not quite advocating for âcondemn nothingâ because you write this bit:
perhaps with some caveats (e.g. that they are the sort of view that a person might honestly come by, as opposed to something invented simply maliciously.)
It depends on what you mean exactly, but I think this may not be going far enough. Some people donât cult-founder-style invent new beliefs with some ulterior motive (like making money), but the beliefs they âhonestlyâ come to may still be hateful and prejudiced. Also, some people might be aware that thereâs a lot of misanthropy and wanting to feel superior in their thinking, but they might be manipulatively pretending to only be interested in âtruth-seeking,â especially when talking to impressionable members of the rationality community, where you get lots of social credit for signalling truth-seeking virtues.
To get to the heart of things, do you think Hananiaâs views are no worse than the examples you give? If so, I would expect people to say that heâs not actually racist.
However, if they are worse, then Iâd say letâs drop the cultural relativism and condemn them.
It seems to me like thereâs no disagreement by people familiar with Hanania that his views were worse in the past. Thatâs a red flag. Some people say heâs changed his views. Iâm not per se against giving people second chances, but it seems suspicious to me that someone who admits that theyâve had really shitty racist views in the past now continues to focus on issues where they â even according to other discussion participants here who defend him â still seem racist. Like, why isnât he trying to educate people on how not to fall victim to a hateful ideology, since he has personal experience with that. Itâs hard to come away with âah, now the motivation is compassion and wanting the best for everyone, when previously it was something dark.â (Iâm not saying such changes of heart are impossible, but I donât view it as likely, given what other commenters are saying.)
Anyway, to comment on your examples:
Singer faced most of the heat for his views on preimplantation diagnostics and disability before EA became a movement. Still, Iâd bet that, if EAs had been around back then, many EAs, and especially the ones I most admire and agree with, wouldâve come to his defense.
I just skimmed that eugenics article you link to and it seems fine to me, or even good. Also, most of the pushback there from EA forum participants is about the strategy of still using the word âeugenicsâ instead of using a different word, so many people donât seem to disagree much with the substance of the article.
In Bostromâs case, I donât think anyone thinks that Bostromâs comments from long ago were a good thing, but thereâs a difference between them being awkward and tone-deaf, vs them being hateful or hate-inspired. (And itâs more forgivable for people to be awkward and tone-deaf when theyâre young.)
Lastly, on Scott Alexanderâs example, whether intelligence differences are at least partly genetic is an empirical question, not a moral one. It might well be influenced by someone having hateful moral views, so it matters where a personâs interest in that sort of issue is coming from. Does it come from a place of hate or wanting to seem superior, or does it come from a desire for truth-seeking and believing that knowing whatâs the case makes it easier to help? (And: Does the person make any actual efforts to help disadvantaged groups?) As Scott Alexander points out himself:
Somebody who believes that Mexicans are more criminal than white people might just be collecting crime stats, but weâre suspicious that they might use this to justify an irrational hatred toward Mexicans and desire to discriminate against them. So itâs potentially racist, regardless of whether you attribute it to genetics or culture.
So, all these examples (I think Zach Davisâs writing is more ârationality communityâ than EA, and Iâm not really familiar with it, so I wonât comment on it) seem fine to me.
When I said,
None of the people who were important to EA historically have had hateful or heartless-and-prejudiced views (or, if someone had them secretly, at least they didnât openly express it).
This wasnât about, âCan we find some random people (who we otherwise wouldnât listen to when it comes to other topics) who will be outraged.â
Instead, I meant that we can look at peopleâs views at the object level and decide whether theyâre coming from a place of compassion for everyone and equal consideration of interests, or whether theyâre coming from a darker place.
And someone can have wrong views that arenât hateful:
Many of my extended family members consider the idea that abortion is permissible to be hateful and wrong. I consider their views, in addition to many of their other religious views, to be hateful and wrong.
Iâm not sure if youâre using âhatefulâ here as a weird synonym to âwrong,â or whether your extended relatives have similarities to the Westboro Baptist Church.
Normally, I think of people who are for abortion bans as merely misguided (since theyâre often literally misguided about empirical questions, or sometimes they seem to have an inability to move away from rigid-category thinking and not understand the necessity of having a different logic for non-typical examples/âedge cases).
When I speak of âhateful,â itâs something more. I then mean that the ideology has an affinity for appealing to peopleâs darker motivations. I think ideologies like that are properly dangerous, as weâve seen historically. (And it applies to, e.g., Communism just as well as to racism.)
I agree with you that conferences do very little âvettingâ (and find this is okay), but I think the little vetting that they do and should do includes âdonât bring in people who are mouthpieces to ideologies that appeal to peopleâs dark instincts.â (And also things like, âdonât bring in people who are known to cause harm to others,â whether thatâs through sexually predatory behavior or the tendency to form mini-cults around themselves.)
It seems to me like thereâs no disagreement by people familiar with Hanania that his views were worse in the past. Thatâs a red flag. Some people say heâs changed his views. Iâm not per se against giving people second chances, but it seems suspicious to me that someone who admits that theyâve had really shitty racist views in the past now continues to focus on issues where they â even according to other discussion participants here who defend him â still seem racist.
Agreed. I think the 2008-10 postings under the Hoste pseudonym are highly relevant insofar as they show a sustained pattern of bigotry during that time. They are just not consistent in my mind with having fallen into error despite even minimally good-faith, truth-seeking behavior combined with major errors in judgment. Sample quotations in this article. Once you get to that point, you may get a second chance at some future time, but Iâm not inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt on your second chance:
A person who published statements like the Hoste statements over a period of time, but has reformed, should be on notice that there was something in them that led them to the point of glorifying white nationalism and at least espousing white supremacist beliefs. (I donât care to read any more of the Hoste writings to be more precise than that.) An actually reformed white nationalist should know to be very cautious in what they write about Hispanic and African-American persons, because they should know that a deep prejudice once resided within them and might still be lurking beneath at some level.
The establishment of clear, sustained bigotry at time-1 would ordinarily justify an inference that any deeply problematic statements at later times are also the result of bigotry unless the evidence suggests otherwise. In contrast, it is relatively more likely that a deeply problematic statement by someone without a past history of bigotry could reflect unconscious (or at least semi-conscious?) racism, a severe but fairly isolated lack of judgment, or other serious issues that are nevertheless more forgivable than outright bigotry.
I agree with you when you said that we can know evil ideas when we see them and rightly condemn them. We donât have to adopt some sort of generic welcomingness to all ideas, including extremist hate ideologies.
I disagree with you about some of the examples of alleged racism or prejudice or hateful views attributed to people like Nick Bostrom and Scott Alexander. I definitely wouldnât wave these examples away by saying they âseem fine to me.â I think one thing youâre trying to say is that these examples are very different from someone being overtly and egregiously white supremacist in the worst way like Richard Hanania, and I agree. But I wouldnât say these examples are âfineâ.
It is okay to criticize the views and behaviour of figures perceived to be influential in EA. I think thatâs healthy.
Appreciate the reply. I donât have a well-informed opinion about Hanania in particular, and I really donât care to read enough of his writing to try to get one, so I think I said everything I can say about the topic (e.g. I canât really speak to whether Hananiaâs views are specifically worse than all the examples I think of when I think of EA views that people may find outrageous.)
Under the pseudonym, Hanania argued for eugenics, including the forcible sterilization of everyone with an IQ below 90.[4] He also denounced ârace-mixingâ and said that white nationalism âis the only hopeâ.[6] He opposed immigration to the United States, saying that âthe IQ and genetic differences between them and native Europeans are real, and assimilation is impossibleâ. He cited a speech by neo-Nazi William Luther Pierce, who had used Haiti as an example to argue that black people are incapable of governing themselves.[4]
When someone makes the accusation that transhumanism or effective altruism or longtermism or worries about low birth rates is a form of thinly veiled covert racism, I generally think they donât really understand the topic and are tilting at windmills.
But then I see people who are indeed super racist talking about these topics and I canât really say the critics are fully wrong. Particularly if communities like the EA Forum or the broader online EA community donât vigorously repudiate the racism.
I donât think it makes any sense to punish people for past political or moral views they have sincerely recanted. There is some sense in which it shows bad judgement but ideology is a different domain from most. I am honestly quite invested in something like âmoral progressâ. Its a bit of a naive position to have to defend philosophically but I think most altruists are too. At least if they are being honest with themselves. Lots of people are empirically quite racist. Very few people grew up with what I would consider to be great values. If someone sincerely changes their ways Im happy to call them brother or sister. Have a party. Slaughter the uhhhhh fattest pumpkin and make vegan pumpkin pie.
However mr Hanania is stil quite racist. He may or may not still be more of a Nazi than he lets on but even his professed views are quite bad. Im not sure what the policy should be on cooperating with people with opposing value sets. Or on Hanania himself. I just wanted to say something in support of being truly welcoming to anyone who real deal rejects their past harmful ideology.
I have been extremely unimpressed with Richard Hanania and I donât understand why people find his writing interesting. But I think that the modern idea that itâs good policy to âshunâ people who express wrong (or heartless, or whatever) views is totally wrong, and is especially inappropriate for EA in practice, the impact of which has largely been due to unusual people with unusual views.
Whether someone speaks at Manifest (or is on a blogroll, or whatever) should be about whether they are going to give an interesting talk to Manifest, not because of their general moral character. Especially not because of the moral character of their beliefs, rather than their actions. And really especially not because of the moral character of things they used to believe.
By not âshunningâ (actual, serious) racists, you are indirectly âshunningâ everybody they target.
Imagine if there was a guy whoâs âunusual ideaâ was that some random guy called ben was the source of all the evils in the world. Furthermore, this is somehow a widespread belief, and he has to deal with widespread harrasment and death threats, despite doing literally nothing wrong. You invite, as speaker at your conference, someone who previously said that Ben is a âdemonic slut who needs to be sterilisedâ.
Do you think Ben is going to show up to your conference?
And this can sometimes set into motion a ânazi death spiralâ. You let a few nazis into your community for âfree speechâ reasons. All the people uncomfortable with the presence of one or two nazis leave, making the nazis a larger percentage of the community, attracting more, which makes more people leave, until only naziâs and people who are comfortable with nazis are left. This has literally happened on several occasions!
Shunning people for saying vile things is entirely fine and necessary for the health of a community. This is called âhaving standardsâ.
I would add that itâs shunning people for saying vile things with ill intent which seems necessary. This is what separates the case of Hanania from others. In most cases, punishing well-intentioned people is counterproductive. It drives them closer to those with ill intent, and suggests to well-intentioned bystanders that they need to choose to associate with the other sort of extremist to avoid being persecuted. Iâm not an expert on history but from my limited knowledge a similar dynamic might have existed in Germany in the 1920s/â1930s; people were forced to choose between the far-left and the far-right.
The Germany argument works better the other way round: there were plenty of non-communist alternatives to Hitler (and the communists werenât capable of winning at the ballot box), but a lot of Germans who didnât share his race obsession thought he had some really good ideas worth listening to, and then many moderate rivals eventually concluded they were better off working with him.
I donât think itâs âpunishingâ people not to give them keynote addresses and citations as allies. I doubt Leif Wenar is getting invitations to speak at EA events any time soon, not because heâs an intolerable human being but simply because his core messaging is completely incompatible with what EA is trying to do...
I do not think the rise of Nazi germany had much to do with social âshunningâ. More it was a case of the economy being in shambles, both the far-left and far-right wanting to overthrow the government, and them fighting physical battles in the street over it, until the right-wing won enough of the populace over. I guess there was left-wing infighting between the communists and the social democrats, but that was less over âshunningâ than over murdering the other sides leader.
I think intent should be a factor when thinking about whether to shun, but it should not be the only factor. If you somehow convinced me that a holocaust denier genuinely bore no ill intent, I still wouldnât want them in my community, because it would create a massively toxic atmosphere and hurt everybody else. I think itâs good to reach out and try to help well-intentioned people see the errors of their ways, but itâs not the responsibility of the EA movement to do so here.
Yes, a similar dynamic (relating to siding with another side to avoid persecution) might have existed in Germany in the 1920s/â1930s (e.g. I imagine industrialists preferred Nazis to Communists). I agree it was not a major factor in the rise of Nazi Germanyâwhich was one result of the political violenceâand that there are differences.
Given his past behavior, I think itâs more likely than not that youâre right about him. Even someone more skeptical should acknowledge that the views he expressed in the past and the views he now expresses likely stem from the same malevolent attitudes.
But about far-left politics being ânot racistâ, I think itâs fair to say that far-left politics discriminates in favor or against individuals on the basis of race. Itâs usually not the kind of malevolent racial discrimination of the far-rightâwhich absolutely needs to be condemned and eliminated by society. The far-left appear primarily motivated by benevolence towards racial groups perceived to be disadvantaged or are in fact disadvantaged, but it is still racially discriminatory (and it sometimes turns into the hateful type of discrimination). If we want to treat individuals on their own merits, and not on the basis of race, that sort of discrimination must also be condemned.
Also, there is famously quite a lot of antisemitism on the left and far left. Sidestepping the academic debate on whether antisemitism is or is not technically a form of racism, it seem strange to me to claim that racism-and-adjacent only exist on the right.
(for avoidance of doubt, I agree with the OP that Hanania seems racist, and not a good ally for this community)
(I havenât read the full comment here and donât want to express opinions about all its claims. But for people who saw my comments on the other post, I want to state for the record that based on what Iâve seen of Richard Hananiaâs writing online, I think Manifest next year would be better without him. Itâs not my choice, but if I organised it, I wouldnât invite him. I donât think of him as a âfriend of EAâ.)
Given the Guardian piece, inviting Hannania to Manifest seems like an unforced error on the part of Manifold and possibly Lightcone. This does not change because the article was a hitpiece with many inaccuracies. I might have more to say later.
To clarify, I think when you say âsterilization of everyone under 90â you mean that he favored the âforcible sterilization of everyone with an IQ below 90âł (quoting Wikipedia here)?
Please people, do not treat Richard Hannania as some sort of worthy figure who is a friend of EA. He was a Nazi, and whilst he claims he moderated his views, he is still very racist as far as I can tell.
Hannania called for trying to get rid of all non-white immigrants in the US, and the sterilization of everyone with an IQ under 90 indulged in antisemitic attacks on the allegedly Jewish elite, and even post his reform was writing about the need for the state to harass and imprison Black people specifically (âa revolution in our culture or form of government. We need more policing, incarceration, and surveillance of black peopleâ https://ââen.wikipedia.org/ââwiki/ââRichard_Hanania). Yet in the face of this, and after he made an incredibly grudging apology about his most extreme stuff (after journalists dug it up), heâs been invited to Manifioldâs events and put on Richard Yetter Chappelâs blogroll.
DO NOT DO THIS. If you want people to distinguish benign transhumanism (which I agree is a real thing*) from the racist history of eugenics, do not fail to shun actual racists and Nazis. Likewise, if you want to promote âdecouplingâ factual beliefs from policy recommendations, which can be useful, do not duck and dive around the fact that virtually every major promoter of scientific racism ever, including allegedly mainstream figures like Jensen, worked with or published with actual literal Nazis (https://ââwww.splcenter.org/ââfighting-hate/ââextremist-files/ââindividual/ââarthur-jensen).
I love most of the people I have met through EA, and I know that-despite what some people say on twitter- we are not actually a secret crypto-fascist movement (nor is longtermism specifically, which whether you like it or not, is mostly about what its EA proponents say it is about.) But there is in my view a disturbing degree of tolerance for this stuff in the community, mostly centered around the Bay specifically. And to be clear I am complaining about tolerance for people with far-right and fascist (âreactionaryâ or whatever) political views, not people with any particular personal opinion on the genetics of intelligence. A desire for authoritarian government enforcing the ânaturalâ racial hierarchy does not become okay, just because you met the person with the desire at a house party and they seemed kind of normal and chill or super-smart and nerdy.
I usually take a way more measured tone on the forum than this, but here I think real information is given by getting shouty.
*Anyone who thinks it is automatically far-right to think about any kind of genetic enhancement at all should go read some Culture novels, and note the implied politics (or indeed, look up the authorâs actual die-hard libertarian socialist views.) I am not claiming that far-left politics is innocent, just that it is not racist.
Iâd just like to clarify that my blogroll should not be taken as a list of âworthy figure[s] who [are] friend[s] of EAâ! Theyâre just blogs I find often interesting and worth reading. No broader moral endorsement implied!
fwiw, I found TracingWoodgrainsâ thoughts here fairly compelling.
ETA, specifically:
I find it so maddeningly short-sighted to praise a white supremacist for being ârespectfulâ. White supremacists are not respectful to non-white people! Expand your moral circle!
A recurring problem I find with replies to criticism of associating with white supremacist figures like Hanania is a complete failure to empathize with or understand (or perhaps to care?) why people are so bothered by white supremacy. Implied in white supremacy is the threat of violence against non-white people. Dehumanizing language is intimately tied to physical violence against the people being dehumanized.
White supremacist discourse is not merely part of some kind of entertaining parlour room conversation. Itâs a bullet in a gun.
fyi, I weakly downvoted this because (i) you seem like youâre trying to pick a fight and I donât think itâs productive; there are familiar social ratcheting effects that incentivize exaggerated rhetoric on race and gender online, and I donât think we should encourage that. (There was nothing in my comment that invited this response.) (ii) I think youâre misrepresenting Trace. (iii) The âexpand your moral circleâ comment implies, falsely, that the only reason one could have for tolerating someone with bad views is that you donât care about those harmed by their bad views.
I did not mean the reference to Trace to function as a conversation opener. (Quite the opposite!) Iâve now edited my original comment to clarify the relevant portion of the tweet. But if anyone wants to disagree with Trace, maybe start a new thread for that rather than replying to me. Thanks!
Now I wonder if youâre actually familiar with Hananiaâs white supremacist views? (See here, for example.)
See also this comment.
If white supremacists are by definition non-respectful to non-white people, and Hanania appears fairly respectful to non-white people, perhaps that allows us to conclude that Hanania does not, in fact, qualify for your definition of âwhite supremacistâ?
Alternatively, see Scottâs post The noncentral fallacyâthe worst argument in the world?
The comment youâre replying to has somewhat sloppy language and reasoning. Unfortunately your comment managed to be even worse.
This line of reasoning is implausible. If having a single nonwhite person over on a podcast without being rude is strong evidence against white supremacy, trusting nonwhite people enough to ally with you in a war is surely even better evidence.
The literal historical Nazis allied in a literal war with literal historical Imperial Japan (a country which is mostly nonwhite). While I donât personally like to throw around phrases like âwhite supremacyâ very often, I think reasonable people can agree that Nazis are white supremacists.
I think you must have missed the âIfâ clause at the beginning of my comment, or the reference to âyour definitionâ in my sentence.
Iâm not sure how much simpler I can make this, but Iâll give it a try.
Either disrespect towards non-white people is characteristic of white supremacy, or it is not. (Law of the excluded middle.)
If it is, then by conservation of expected evidence, respect towards non-white people is limited evidence against white supremacy.
If it is not, then Yarrowâs original claim âWhite supremacists are not respectful to non-white people!â would appear to be false.
So, it sounds like maybe youâre trying to argue against Yarrowâs original claim that âWhite supremacists are not respectful to non-white people!â, by giving the concrete example of Nazis respecting their Imperial Japanese allies? Thatâs the simplest way for me to read what you wrote.
This entire thread just demonstrates how confused and useless it is to argue âby definitionâ, or argue about term definitions. Set aside all word-definition disputes for a minute: The relevant question was whether Richard Hanania is a bad person to invite to conferences because heâll be disrespectful to non-white people. Respectful interactions with a non-white podcast guest are perfectly good, if limited, evidence pertaining to that question. Can we agree on that, at least?
Espousing white supremacist views is in itself disrespectful to non-white people, regardless of whether the white supremacist sometimes has polite and cordial conversations on topics unrelated to race and racism with non-white people.
Well, your original statement was: âWhite supremacists are not respectful to non-white people!â I suppose I mustâve misinterpreted youâI interpreted it to mean that you thought Hanania would be disrespectful to non-white conference attendees in a conference social setting.
When someone is pushing for our society to destroy, oppress, enslave, or exile millions of human beings, whether they mask their hatred with a veneer of politeness is not really the crux of the matter. It is extremely alienating and hostile to the people they hate and are seeking to severely harm to in any way endorse, promote, normalize, or empower them. That would include inviting them to a conference.
You keep inserting words into peopleâs mouths lmao. Nobody said âby definitionâ before you did. (Control-F for âby definitionâ if you donât believe me).
I did not miss your âif.â I didnât think it was necessary to go into the semantics dive because I thought the analogy would be relatively clear. Let me try again:
In general, when someone says X group is Y, a reasonable interpretation is that members of X group are more likely to be Y. If you are being Gricean, somebody saying A is a member of X implies that they think A is a fairly central member of X and thus are more likely to exhibit Y.
In colloquial English, âX is Yâ almost never means âif X, then Y, for all values of X and Yâ. Eg, if somebody said âmen are taller than womenâ you should take this as a claim about statistical averages, not a claim that all men are taller than all women.
Similarly, if you see someone say something like âNazis are disrespectful to nonwhitesâ you should interpret this as a claim that Nazis are on average significantly less respectful to nonwhites than other people would be to nonwhites. If you assume someoneâs being Gricean when they said that, you might further assume that they believe that the specific Nazi theyâre referring to exhibits similar behaviors to other Nazis on at least this dimension.
You should not interpret it as âevery single Nazi is disrespectful to every single nonwhite person, in every case and in full generality.â I donât think this is difficult. I donât think youâd genuinely object to a claim âNazis are disrespectful to nonwhites,â despite cases like allying with Imperial Japan, or adopting a swastika from Indian culture, or John Rabe. Even if the Nazis writ large made an entire exception for an entire ethnicity of people (eg suppose they were never disrespectful to the Japanese), Iâd still consider the basic claim âNazis are disrespectful to nonwhitesâ to be approximately correct, and would not go all out of my way to continuously correct every incidence of that remark with âNazis are disrespectful to nonwhites who are not Japanese.â[1]
Analogies aside, letâs go back to Yarrowâs original claim:
I think your attempt at a gotcha fails. For the same reason that itâs reasonable for someone to say men are taller than women without being immediately disproven as soon as you find a woman whoâs taller than a man, or that Nazis are disrespectful of nonwhites despite allying with Japan.
Before writing angry/âinflammatory replies, I recommend reading the actual text.
And I certainly wonât say the claim overall is false just because of a class [2]of exceptions! This is very much not how English works.
Itâd be even more absurd to rate the claim as false due to a single exception
Some examples of Hananiaâs endorsement of white supremacist views and organizations, from an article in the Huffington Post:
As far as I can tell, thereâs no disagreement in this thread that Hanania held some repugnant views in the early 2010s. In terms of deciding whether to shun him in the present, it seems like the key issues are
(a) what the statue of limitations should be
and
(b) whether he said something repugnant recently enough that the statue of limitations would not apply
Perhaps you believe that Hananiaâs early-2010s comments somehow reveal a âmore authenticâ version of his beliefs that heâs hiding from the public nowadays. That seems unlikely to me, given the more recent posts of his that I linked elsewhere in this thread. If he still held his early-2010s beliefs secretly, I donât think he would argue against them so explicitly now.
Even the Hanania article you linked to entitled âDiversity Is Our Strengthâ contains as one of its core arguments the suggestion that Hispanic immigrants might be won over to his support for âwar with civil rights lawâ by âcomparing them favorably to genderfluid liberals and urban blacksâ.
The next sentence links to one of his own tweets about how âselling immigrants on hating liberals would be the easiest thing in the worldâ, featuring a video of Muslims protesting in favour of LGBT book bans.
Perhaps you donât find this style of politics repugnant, perhaps it even represents a marginal improvement on his prior beliefs, but I donât think itâs one EA should be endorsing.
(Agreed that I wouldnât want EA endorsing this style of politics)
Just to expand on the above, Iâve written a new blog postâItâs OK to Read Anyoneâthat explains (i) why I wonât personally engage in intellectual boycotts [obviously the situation is different for organizations, and Iâm happy for them to make their own decisions!], and (ii) what it is in Hananiaâs substack writing that I personally find valuable and worth recommending to other intellectuals.
Your comment seems a bit light on citations, and didnât match my impression of Hanania after spending 10s of hours reading his stuff. Iâve certainly never seen him advocate for an authoritarian government as a means of enforcing a ânaturalâ racial hierarchy. This claim stood out to me:
Hanania wrote this post in 2023. Itâs the first hit on his substack search for âimmigrationâ. This apparent lack of fact-checking makes me doubt the veracity of your other claims.
It seems like this is your only specific citation:
This appears to be a falsified quote. [CORRECTION: The quote appears here on Hananiaâs Twitter. Thanks David. Iâm leaving the rest of my comment as originally written, since I think it provides some valuable context.] Search for âwe need moreâ on Wikipediaâs second citation. The actual quote is as follows:
This paragraph, from the same post, is useful context:
Hanania has stated elsewhere that heâs a fan of Bukele and his policies. Hananiaâs position appears to be that since St Louis has a murder rate comparable to El Salvador when Bukele took power, St Louis could benefit from Bukele-style policies, but that would require stuff that liberals donât like. Wikipedia makes it sound like antipathy towards Black people is his explicit motive, but thatâs not how I understood him. It might be his implicit motive, but that could be true for anyoneâmaybe liberals prefer soft-on-crime policies because high crime keeps Black people in poverty. Who knows.
If you want to convince me that Hanania is a current-Nazi, letâs discuss the single worst thing he said recently under his real name, and we can see if the specific quote holds up to scrutiny in context.
[EDIT: To be clear, if you want to exclude Hanania because you think he is kinda sketchy, or was a bad person in the past, or is too willing to make un-PC factual claims, that may be a reasonable position. Iâm arguing against excluding him on the basis that heâs a Nazi, because I donât think that is currently true. His 2023 post advocating for racially diverse immigration to the US seems like a very straightforward disproof. If you manage to get Wikipedia to cite it, Iâll be impressed, by the way.]
Regarding the last paragraph, in the edit:
I think the comments here are ignoring a perfectly sufficient reason to not, eg, invite him to speak at an EA adjacent conference. If I understand correctly, he consistently endorsed white supremacy for several years as a pseudonymous blogger.
Effective Altruism has grown fairly popular. We do not have a shortage of people who have heard of us and are willing to speak at conferences. We can afford to apply a few filtering criteria that exclude otherwise acceptable speakers.
âZero articles endorsing white supremacyâ is one such useful filter.
I predict that people considering joining or working with us would sometimes hear about speakers whoâd once endorsed white supremacy, and be seriously concerned. Iâd put not-insignificant odds that the number that back off because of this would reduce the growth of the movement by over 10%. We can and should prefer speakers who donât bring this potential problem.
A few clarifications follow:
-Nothing about this relies on his current views. He could be a wonderful fluffy bunny of a person today, and it would all still apply. Doesnât sound like the consensus in this thread, but itâs not relevant.
-This does not mean anyone needs to spurn him, if they think heâs a good enough person now. Of course he can reform! I wouldnât ask that he sew a scarlet letter into his clothing or become unemployable or be cast into the outer darkness. But, it doesnât seem unreasonable to say that past actions as a public thinker can impact your future as a public thinker. I sure hope he wouldnât hold it against people that he gets fewer speaking invitations despite reforming.
-I donât see this as a slippery slope towards becoming a close-minded community. The views he held would have been well outside the Overton window of any EA space Iâve been in, to the best of my knowledge. There were multiple such views, voiced seriously and consistently. Bostromâs ill-advised email is not a good reason to remove him from lists of speakers, and Hananiaâs multi-year advocacy of racist ideas is a good reason. There will be cases that require careful analysis, but I think both of these cases are extreme enough to be fairly clear-cut.
Un-endorsed for two reasons.
Manifold invited people based on having advocated for prediction markets, which is a much stricter criterion than being a generic public speaker that feels positively about your organization. With a smaller pool of speakers, it is not trivially cheap to apply filters, so it is not as clear cut as I claimed. (I could have found out this detail before writing, and I feel embarrassed that I didnât.)
Despite having an EA in a leadership role and ample EA-adjacent folks that associate with it, Manifold doesnât consider itself EA-aligned. It sucks that potential EAâs will sometimes mistake non-EAâs for EAâs, but it is important to respect it when a group tells the wider EA community that we arenât their real dad and canât make requests. (This does not appear to have been common knowledge so I feel less embarrassed about this one.)
https://ââtwitter.com/ââRichardHanania/ââstatus/ââ1657541010745081857?lang=en. There you go for the quote in the form Wikipedia gives it.
Thank you. Is your thought that ârevolution in our culture or system of governmentâ is supposed to be a call for some kind of fascist revolution? My take is, like a lot of right-leaning people, Hanania sees progressive influence as deep and pervasive in almost all American institutions. From this perspective, a priority on fighting crime even when it means heavily disparate impact looks like a revolutionary change.
Hanania has been pretty explicit about his belief that liberal democracy is generally the best form of governmentâsee this post for example. If he was crypto-fash, I think he would just not publish posts like that.
BTW, I donât agree with Hanania on everything⊠for example, the âsome humans are in a very deep sense better than other humansâ line from the post I just linked sketches me out someâit seems to conflate moral value with ability. I find Hanania interesting reading, but the idea that EA should distance itself from him on the margin seems like something a reasonable person could believe. I think it comes down to your position in the larger debate over whether EA should prioritize optics vs intellectual vibrancy.
Here is another recent post (titled âShut up About Race and IQâ) that I struggle to imagine a crypto-Nazi writing. E.g. these quotes:
(Well not quite, Wiki edit out âor our cultureâ as an alternative to âform of governmentâ).
I have very mixed views on Richard Hannania.
On one hand, some of his past views were pretty terrible (even though I believe that youâve exaggerated the extent of these views).
On the other hand, he is also one of the best critics of conservatives. Take for example, this article where he tells conservatives to stop being idiots who believe random conspiracy theories and another where he tells them to stop scamming everyone. These are amazing, brilliant articles with great chutzpah. As someone quite far to the right, heâs able to make these points far more credibly than a moderate or liberal ever could.
So I guess I feel heâs kind of a necessary voice, at least at this particular point in time when there are few alternatives.
I think itâs pretty unreasonable to call him a Naziâheâd hate Nazis, because he loves Jews and generally dislikes dumb conservatives.
I agree that he seems pretty racist.
Iâd like to give some context for why I disagree.
Yes, Richard Hanania is pretty racist. His views have historically been quite repugnant, and heâs admitted that âI truly sucked back thenâ. However, I think EA causes are more important than political differences. Itâs valuable when Hanania exposes the moral atrocity of factory farming and defends EA to his right-wing audience. If weâre being scope-sensitive, I think we have a lot more in common with Hanania on the most important questions than we do on political issues.
I also think Hanania has excellent takes on most issues, and thatâs because heâs the most intellectually honest blogger Iâve encountered. I think Hanania likes EA because heâs willing to admit that heâs imperfect, unlike EAâs critics who would rather feel good about themselves than actually help others.
More broadly, I think we could be doing more to attract people who donât hold typical Bay Area beliefs. Just 3% of EAs identify as right wing. I think there are several reasons why, all else equal, it would be better to have more political diversity:
In this era of political polarization, It would be a travesty for EA issues to become partisan.
All else equal, political diversity is good for community epistemics. In that regard, it should be encouraged for much the same reason that cultural and racial diversity are encouraged.
If we want EA to be a global social movement, we need to show that one can be EA even if they hold beliefs on other issues we find repugnant. I live in Panama for my job. When I arrived here, I had a culture shock from how backwards many peopleâs views are on racism and sexism. If we canât be friends with the person next door with bad views, how are we going to make allies globally?
Being âpretty racistâ with a past history of being even worse is not a mere âpolitical issue.â
I donât see how the proposition that Hanania has agreeable views on some issues, like factory farming contradicts Davidâs position that we should not treat him âas some sort of worthy figureâ and (impliedly) that we should not platform him at our events or on our blogrolls.
There is a wide gap between the proposition that EA should seek to attract more âpeople who donât hold typical Bay Area beliefsâ (I agree) and that EA should seek to attract people by playing nice with those like Hanania.
Among other things, the fact is that you canât create a social movement that can encompass 100% of humanity. You canât both be welcoming to people who hold âpretty racistâ views and to the targets of their racism. And if you start welcoming in the pretty-racist, youâre at least risking the downward spiral of having more racism-intolerant people like --> more openness to racism --> more departures from those intolerant to racism --> soon, youâve got a whole lot of racism going on.
+1
If even some of the people defending this person start with âyes, heâs pretty racist,â that makes me think David Mathers is totally right.
Regarding cataâs comment:
Why move from âwrong or heartlessâ to âunusual people with unusual viewsâ? None of the people who were important to EA historically have had hateful or heartless-and-prejudiced views (or, if someone had them secretly, at least they didnât openly express it). It would also be directly opposed to EA core principles (compassion, equal consideration of interests).
I think sufficiently shitty character should be disqualifying. I agree with you insofar that, if someone has ideas that seem worth discussing, I can imagine a stance of âweâre talking to this person in a moderated setting to hear their ideas,â but Iâd importantly caveat it by making sure to also expose their shittiness. In other words, I think platforming a person who promotes a dangerous ideology (or, to give a different example, someone who has a tendency to form mini-cults around them that predictably harm some of the people they come into contact with) isnât necessarily wrong, but it comes with a specific responsibility. What would be wrong is implicitly conveying that the person youâre platforming is vetted/ânormal/âharmless, when they actually seem dangerous. If someone actually seems dangerous, make sure that, if you do decide to platform them (presumably because you think they also have some good/âimportant things to say), others wonât come away with the impression that you donât think theyâre dangerous.
I believe these two things:
A) People donât have very objective moral intuitions, so there isnât widespread agreement on what views are seriously wrong.
B) Unusual people typically come by their unusual views by thinking in some direction that is not socially typical, and then drawing conclusions that make sense to them.
So if you are a person who does B, you probably donât and shouldnât have confidence that many other people wonât find your views to be seriously wrong. So a productive intellectual community that wants to hear things you have to say, should be prepared to tolerate views that seem seriously wrong, perhaps with some caveats (e.g. that they are the sort of view that a person might honestly come by, as opposed to something invented simply maliciously.)
I think this is absolutely false. A kind of obvious example (to many, since as above, people do not unanimously agree on what is hateful) is that famous Nick Bostrom email about racial differences. Another example to many is the similar correspondence from Scott Alexander. Another example would be Zack Davisâs writing on transgender identity. Another example would be Peter Singerâs writing on disability. Another example would be this post arguing in favor of altruistic eugenics. These are all views that many people who are even very culturally close to the authors (e.g. modern Western intellectuals) would consider hateful and wrong.
Of course, having views that substantially different cultures would consider hateful and wrong is so commonplace that I hardly need to give any examples. Many of my extended family members consider the idea that abortion is permissible to be hateful and wrong. I consider their views, in addition to many of their other religious views, to be hateful and wrong. And I donât believe that either of us have come by our views particularly unreasonably.
Perhaps this is an important crux. If a big conference is bringing a bunch of people to give talks that the speakers are individually responsible for, I personally would infer ~zero vetting or endorsement, and I would judge each talk with an open mind. (I think I am correct to do this, because little vetting is in fact done; the large conferences I have been familiar with hunt for speakers based on who they think will draw crowds, e.g. celebrities and people with knowledge and power, not because they agree with the contents of talks.) So if this is culturally ambiguous it would seem fine to clarify.
I think this is just naive. People pay money and spend their precious time to go to these conferences. If you invite a racist, the effect will be twofold:
More racists will come to your conference.
more minorities, and people sympathetic to minorities, will stay home.
When this second group stays home (as is their right), they take their bold and unusual ideas with them.
By inviting a racist, you are not selecting for âbold and unusual ideasâ. You are selecting for racism.
And yes, a similar dynamic will play out with many controversial ideas. Which is why you need to exit the meta level, and make deliberate choices about which ideas you want to keep, and which groups of people you are okay with driving away. This also comes with a responsibility to treat said topics with appropriate levels of care and consideration, something that, for example, Bostrom failed horribly at.
I feel like youâre trying to equivocate âwrong or heartlessâ (or âheartless-and-prejudiced,â as I called it elsewhere) with âsocially provocativeâ or âcauses outrage to a subset of readers.â
That feels like misdirection.
I see two different issues here:
(1) Are some ideas that cause social backlash still valuable?
(2) Are some ideas shitty and worth condemning?
My answer is yes to both.
When someone expresses a view that belongs into (2), pointing at the existence of (1) isnât a good defense.
You may be saying that we should be humble and canât tell the difference, but I think we can. Moral relativism sucks.
FWIW, if I thought we couldnât tell the difference, then it wouldnât be obvious to me that we should go for âcondemn pretty much nothingâ as opposed to âcondemn everything that causes controversy.â Both of these seem equally extremely bad.
I see that youâre not quite advocating for âcondemn nothingâ because you write this bit:
It depends on what you mean exactly, but I think this may not be going far enough. Some people donât cult-founder-style invent new beliefs with some ulterior motive (like making money), but the beliefs they âhonestlyâ come to may still be hateful and prejudiced. Also, some people might be aware that thereâs a lot of misanthropy and wanting to feel superior in their thinking, but they might be manipulatively pretending to only be interested in âtruth-seeking,â especially when talking to impressionable members of the rationality community, where you get lots of social credit for signalling truth-seeking virtues.
To get to the heart of things, do you think Hananiaâs views are no worse than the examples you give? If so, I would expect people to say that heâs not actually racist.
However, if they are worse, then Iâd say letâs drop the cultural relativism and condemn them.
It seems to me like thereâs no disagreement by people familiar with Hanania that his views were worse in the past. Thatâs a red flag. Some people say heâs changed his views. Iâm not per se against giving people second chances, but it seems suspicious to me that someone who admits that theyâve had really shitty racist views in the past now continues to focus on issues where they â even according to other discussion participants here who defend him â still seem racist. Like, why isnât he trying to educate people on how not to fall victim to a hateful ideology, since he has personal experience with that. Itâs hard to come away with âah, now the motivation is compassion and wanting the best for everyone, when previously it was something dark.â (Iâm not saying such changes of heart are impossible, but I donât view it as likely, given what other commenters are saying.)
Anyway, to comment on your examples:
Singer faced most of the heat for his views on preimplantation diagnostics and disability before EA became a movement. Still, Iâd bet that, if EAs had been around back then, many EAs, and especially the ones I most admire and agree with, wouldâve come to his defense.
I just skimmed that eugenics article you link to and it seems fine to me, or even good. Also, most of the pushback there from EA forum participants is about the strategy of still using the word âeugenicsâ instead of using a different word, so many people donât seem to disagree much with the substance of the article.
In Bostromâs case, I donât think anyone thinks that Bostromâs comments from long ago were a good thing, but thereâs a difference between them being awkward and tone-deaf, vs them being hateful or hate-inspired. (And itâs more forgivable for people to be awkward and tone-deaf when theyâre young.)
Lastly, on Scott Alexanderâs example, whether intelligence differences are at least partly genetic is an empirical question, not a moral one. It might well be influenced by someone having hateful moral views, so it matters where a personâs interest in that sort of issue is coming from. Does it come from a place of hate or wanting to seem superior, or does it come from a desire for truth-seeking and believing that knowing whatâs the case makes it easier to help? (And: Does the person make any actual efforts to help disadvantaged groups?) As Scott Alexander points out himself:
So, all these examples (I think Zach Davisâs writing is more ârationality communityâ than EA, and Iâm not really familiar with it, so I wonât comment on it) seem fine to me.
When I said,
This wasnât about, âCan we find some random people (who we otherwise wouldnât listen to when it comes to other topics) who will be outraged.â
Instead, I meant that we can look at peopleâs views at the object level and decide whether theyâre coming from a place of compassion for everyone and equal consideration of interests, or whether theyâre coming from a darker place.
And someone can have wrong views that arenât hateful:
Iâm not sure if youâre using âhatefulâ here as a weird synonym to âwrong,â or whether your extended relatives have similarities to the Westboro Baptist Church.
Normally, I think of people who are for abortion bans as merely misguided (since theyâre often literally misguided about empirical questions, or sometimes they seem to have an inability to move away from rigid-category thinking and not understand the necessity of having a different logic for non-typical examples/âedge cases).
When I speak of âhateful,â itâs something more. I then mean that the ideology has an affinity for appealing to peopleâs darker motivations. I think ideologies like that are properly dangerous, as weâve seen historically. (And it applies to, e.g., Communism just as well as to racism.)
I agree with you that conferences do very little âvettingâ (and find this is okay), but I think the little vetting that they do and should do includes âdonât bring in people who are mouthpieces to ideologies that appeal to peopleâs dark instincts.â (And also things like, âdonât bring in people who are known to cause harm to others,â whether thatâs through sexually predatory behavior or the tendency to form mini-cults around themselves.)
Agreed. I think the 2008-10 postings under the Hoste pseudonym are highly relevant insofar as they show a sustained pattern of bigotry during that time. They are just not consistent in my mind with having fallen into error despite even minimally good-faith, truth-seeking behavior combined with major errors in judgment. Sample quotations in this article. Once you get to that point, you may get a second chance at some future time, but Iâm not inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt on your second chance:
A person who published statements like the Hoste statements over a period of time, but has reformed, should be on notice that there was something in them that led them to the point of glorifying white nationalism and at least espousing white supremacist beliefs. (I donât care to read any more of the Hoste writings to be more precise than that.) An actually reformed white nationalist should know to be very cautious in what they write about Hispanic and African-American persons, because they should know that a deep prejudice once resided within them and might still be lurking beneath at some level.
The establishment of clear, sustained bigotry at time-1 would ordinarily justify an inference that any deeply problematic statements at later times are also the result of bigotry unless the evidence suggests otherwise. In contrast, it is relatively more likely that a deeply problematic statement by someone without a past history of bigotry could reflect unconscious (or at least semi-conscious?) racism, a severe but fairly isolated lack of judgment, or other serious issues that are nevertheless more forgivable than outright bigotry.
I agree with you when you said that we can know evil ideas when we see them and rightly condemn them. We donât have to adopt some sort of generic welcomingness to all ideas, including extremist hate ideologies.
I disagree with you about some of the examples of alleged racism or prejudice or hateful views attributed to people like Nick Bostrom and Scott Alexander. I definitely wouldnât wave these examples away by saying they âseem fine to me.â I think one thing youâre trying to say is that these examples are very different from someone being overtly and egregiously white supremacist in the worst way like Richard Hanania, and I agree. But I wouldnât say these examples are âfineâ.
It is okay to criticize the views and behaviour of figures perceived to be influential in EA. I think thatâs healthy.
Appreciate the reply. I donât have a well-informed opinion about Hanania in particular, and I really donât care to read enough of his writing to try to get one, so I think I said everything I can say about the topic (e.g. I canât really speak to whether Hananiaâs views are specifically worse than all the examples I think of when I think of EA views that people may find outrageous.)
Wikipedia:
See this comment for a more detailed survey of Hananiaâs white supremacy.
When someone makes the accusation that transhumanism or effective altruism or longtermism or worries about low birth rates is a form of thinly veiled covert racism, I generally think they donât really understand the topic and are tilting at windmills.
But then I see people who are indeed super racist talking about these topics and I canât really say the critics are fully wrong. Particularly if communities like the EA Forum or the broader online EA community donât vigorously repudiate the racism.
I donât think it makes any sense to punish people for past political or moral views they have sincerely recanted. There is some sense in which it shows bad judgement but ideology is a different domain from most. I am honestly quite invested in something like âmoral progressâ. Its a bit of a naive position to have to defend philosophically but I think most altruists are too. At least if they are being honest with themselves. Lots of people are empirically quite racist. Very few people grew up with what I would consider to be great values. If someone sincerely changes their ways Im happy to call them brother or sister. Have a party. Slaughter the uhhhhh fattest pumpkin and make vegan pumpkin pie.
However mr Hanania is stil quite racist. He may or may not still be more of a Nazi than he lets on but even his professed views are quite bad. Im not sure what the policy should be on cooperating with people with opposing value sets. Or on Hanania himself. I just wanted to say something in support of being truly welcoming to anyone who real deal rejects their past harmful ideology.
I have been extremely unimpressed with Richard Hanania and I donât understand why people find his writing interesting. But I think that the modern idea that itâs good policy to âshunâ people who express wrong (or heartless, or whatever) views is totally wrong, and is especially inappropriate for EA in practice, the impact of which has largely been due to unusual people with unusual views.
Whether someone speaks at Manifest (or is on a blogroll, or whatever) should be about whether they are going to give an interesting talk to Manifest, not because of their general moral character. Especially not because of the moral character of their beliefs, rather than their actions. And really especially not because of the moral character of things they used to believe.
By not âshunningâ (actual, serious) racists, you are indirectly âshunningâ everybody they target.
Imagine if there was a guy whoâs âunusual ideaâ was that some random guy called ben was the source of all the evils in the world. Furthermore, this is somehow a widespread belief, and he has to deal with widespread harrasment and death threats, despite doing literally nothing wrong. You invite, as speaker at your conference, someone who previously said that Ben is a âdemonic slut who needs to be sterilisedâ.
Do you think Ben is going to show up to your conference?
And this can sometimes set into motion a ânazi death spiralâ. You let a few nazis into your community for âfree speechâ reasons. All the people uncomfortable with the presence of one or two nazis leave, making the nazis a larger percentage of the community, attracting more, which makes more people leave, until only naziâs and people who are comfortable with nazis are left. This has literally happened on several occasions!
Shunning people for saying vile things is entirely fine and necessary for the health of a community. This is called âhaving standardsâ.
I would add that itâs shunning people for saying vile things with ill intent which seems necessary. This is what separates the case of Hanania from others. In most cases, punishing well-intentioned people is counterproductive. It drives them closer to those with ill intent, and suggests to well-intentioned bystanders that they need to choose to associate with the other sort of extremist to avoid being persecuted. Iâm not an expert on history but from my limited knowledge a similar dynamic might have existed in Germany in the 1920s/â1930s; people were forced to choose between the far-left and the far-right.
The Germany argument works better the other way round: there were plenty of non-communist alternatives to Hitler (and the communists werenât capable of winning at the ballot box), but a lot of Germans who didnât share his race obsession thought he had some really good ideas worth listening to, and then many moderate rivals eventually concluded they were better off working with him.
I donât think itâs âpunishingâ people not to give them keynote addresses and citations as allies. I doubt Leif Wenar is getting invitations to speak at EA events any time soon, not because heâs an intolerable human being but simply because his core messaging is completely incompatible with what EA is trying to do...
I do not think the rise of Nazi germany had much to do with social âshunningâ. More it was a case of the economy being in shambles, both the far-left and far-right wanting to overthrow the government, and them fighting physical battles in the street over it, until the right-wing won enough of the populace over. I guess there was left-wing infighting between the communists and the social democrats, but that was less over âshunningâ than over murdering the other sides leader.
I think intent should be a factor when thinking about whether to shun, but it should not be the only factor. If you somehow convinced me that a holocaust denier genuinely bore no ill intent, I still wouldnât want them in my community, because it would create a massively toxic atmosphere and hurt everybody else. I think itâs good to reach out and try to help well-intentioned people see the errors of their ways, but itâs not the responsibility of the EA movement to do so here.
Yes, a similar dynamic (relating to siding with another side to avoid persecution) might have existed in Germany in the 1920s/â1930s (e.g. I imagine industrialists preferred Nazis to Communists). I agree it was not a major factor in the rise of Nazi Germanyâwhich was one result of the political violenceâand that there are differences.
Given his past behavior, I think itâs more likely than not that youâre right about him. Even someone more skeptical should acknowledge that the views he expressed in the past and the views he now expresses likely stem from the same malevolent attitudes.
But about far-left politics being ânot racistâ, I think itâs fair to say that far-left politics discriminates in favor or against individuals on the basis of race. Itâs usually not the kind of malevolent racial discrimination of the far-rightâwhich absolutely needs to be condemned and eliminated by society. The far-left appear primarily motivated by benevolence towards racial groups perceived to be disadvantaged or are in fact disadvantaged, but it is still racially discriminatory (and it sometimes turns into the hateful type of discrimination). If we want to treat individuals on their own merits, and not on the basis of race, that sort of discrimination must also be condemned.
Also, there is famously quite a lot of antisemitism on the left and far left. Sidestepping the academic debate on whether antisemitism is or is not technically a form of racism, it seem strange to me to claim that racism-and-adjacent only exist on the right.
(for avoidance of doubt, I agree with the OP that Hanania seems racist, and not a good ally for this community)
(I havenât read the full comment here and donât want to express opinions about all its claims. But for people who saw my comments on the other post, I want to state for the record that based on what Iâve seen of Richard Hananiaâs writing online, I think Manifest next year would be better without him. Itâs not my choice, but if I organised it, I wouldnât invite him. I donât think of him as a âfriend of EAâ.)
This is such a common-sense take, that it worries me it needs writing. I assume this is happening over on twitter (where I donât have an account)? The average non-EA would consider this take to be extremely obvious and is partly why I think we should be considered about the composition of the movement in general.
Given the Guardian piece, inviting Hannania to Manifest seems like an unforced error on the part of Manifold and possibly Lightcone. This does not change because the article was a hitpiece with many inaccuracies. I might have more to say later.
To clarify, I think when you say âsterilization of everyone under 90â you mean that he favored the âforcible sterilization of everyone with an IQ below 90âł (quoting Wikipedia here)?
Yeah sorry!