I still fail to see where the rest of us have standing to “establish norms” about this matter.
I took part of Jeff’s point to be that other people are affected when, e.g., a grantmaker sleeps with a grantee. The fact that we’re affected is what gives us standing to establish norms (and by “establish norms” we’re talking “politely discuss” not “create a norm-enforcing militia”).
We’d have standing to establish norms even if we weren’t part of a community; if the people renting the Airbnb next door throw a rager at 3am, I have standing to ask them to be quiet because their behavior affects me. When you add to this that EA is a social movement—a community of people working in concert with one another to achieve certain goals—we have even more standing (and arguably a responsibility) to help establish norms that facilitate the realization of these goals.
I would strongly push back against the idea that norms are about “politely discussing” appropriate behavior. Norms are about social pressure and getting into other peoples business. It is a contradiction in terms to say “doing or not doing x is a private decision that should be left up to the individual with no external social pressure to do x” and “it should be a norm to do x”.
Regarding the grant example, I have said and continue to believe that it is totally appropriate for organizations to impose conflict of interest policies including limiting romantic relationships between grantees and decision makers. But if the organization has no such policy then that is the issue.
I think the idea that people who are not you simply being in a relationship has anything like an effect on you that playing loud music at 3 am does is both wrong and unhealthy. If a grant-making organization doesn’t have a robust conflict of interest policy, isn’t that the organization’s fault? If it does have one, why do you need these norms on top of that?
I took part of Jeff’s point to be that other people are affected when, e.g., a grantmaker sleeps with a grantee. The fact that we’re affected is what gives us standing to establish norms (and by “establish norms” we’re talking “politely discuss” not “create a norm-enforcing militia”).
We’d have standing to establish norms even if we weren’t part of a community; if the people renting the Airbnb next door throw a rager at 3am, I have standing to ask them to be quiet because their behavior affects me. When you add to this that EA is a social movement—a community of people working in concert with one another to achieve certain goals—we have even more standing (and arguably a responsibility) to help establish norms that facilitate the realization of these goals.
I would strongly push back against the idea that norms are about “politely discussing” appropriate behavior. Norms are about social pressure and getting into other peoples business. It is a contradiction in terms to say “doing or not doing x is a private decision that should be left up to the individual with no external social pressure to do x” and “it should be a norm to do x”.
Regarding the grant example, I have said and continue to believe that it is totally appropriate for organizations to impose conflict of interest policies including limiting romantic relationships between grantees and decision makers. But if the organization has no such policy then that is the issue.
I think the idea that people who are not you simply being in a relationship has anything like an effect on you that playing loud music at 3 am does is both wrong and unhealthy. If a grant-making organization doesn’t have a robust conflict of interest policy, isn’t that the organization’s fault? If it does have one, why do you need these norms on top of that?