I used to think that it was really unfair how people characterized ea as cultish but seeing the discussion lately around dating in ea/polyamory and the public shaming of individuals who have made some missteps just really reminds me of religions including the one I grew up in where people inexplicably feel justified in inserting themselves into other peoples private lives and then using public shaming to enforce these norms.
It’s one thing for an institution (grant maker, employer, university, etc.) or relationship (e.g. monogamous) to have a policy on what kind of relationships are forbidden on the grounds of conflicts of interest or unit cohesion or concerns about power dynamics because that is their business. I still fail to see where the rest of us have standing to “establish norms” about this matter.
I don’t like cheating or sleeping with your grantees or employee any more than the next person but these things are not my business and they aren’t yours either.
I say this all as someone who has been off the dating market for over a decade, so nothing directly applies to me but as someone raised in an oppressive religion, this is looking like my cue to exit.
Thanks for your input! From my perspective as one of the people talking about “establishing norms,” I can definitely do better to add nuance here.
As others have mentioned the issue is the blended lines between the professional roles and personal community is tough to navigate. I generally am in favor of classical liberal approaches to personal morality, but I do think that, as Jeff points out, these sorts of things can be other people’s business in a professional setting.
Imagine you rely on an EA grant for your job/livelihood, or work at an EA organization. You work extremely hard but don’t manage to get you grant renewed or get fired. Then you find out that someone else in a similar role slept with a grantmaker or a grantmaker’s friend, and won the grant over you.
How would that make you feel? Would you still feel it isn’t your business?
It’s one thing to say that it is my business that the grantmaking organization has a bad policy or bad enforcement of existing policy. In fact I do endorse organizations having robust and well-enforced conflict of interest policies.
What I do not endorse is the notion that, supposing I am in the situation you describe, I have standing to directly take issue with the people involved or their behavior. I don’t. If they are violating a policy and their employer doesn’t know about it, I have standing to notify the employer. If the employer has a bad policy, I have standing to publicly not support the employer. What I object to is the idea that “community norms” are an acceptable way of handling this situation (through direct shaming/socially sanctioning/publicly judging of the individual behavior rather than the organizational policy).
Organizational policies are explicit and governed by consent. If I don’t like the policy, I don’t have to work there. If I am unclear on what the policy is, I can read the employee manual. “Community norms” in contrast are murky/non-explicit and no one ever signs a form saying they now agree to enter this community with these rules. For this reason, they are vulnerable to arbitrarily expanding and being used in service of signaling conformity and allegiance rather than serving their alleged purpose. Similarly, organizations also only have jurisdiction over people for whom they actually have reason to care about these matters with and they do not have jurisdiction over people for whom they randomly decide to moralize about. “Community norms”, in contrast, invite everyone to be a busybody about everyone else. Count me out.
One concern about this approach is that much “soft power” does not flow through organizations. So expecting someone’s employer to regulate their independent “soft power” doesn’t seem right, even if the employer were willing to try. One potentially useful test is how much power and influence the person would wield tomorrow if they were fired today.
The origins of “soft power” are often nebulous, but it’s plausible to say that large portions of it come from the community itself, or at least from enough individual sources that the community is a decent proxy. So it’s plausible that, at least where “soft power” is concerned, the community is the closest analogue to the employer.
Policing the differentials in the “soft power” of other people’s relationships is precisely the sort of busybodying that I find so toxic and intrusive. Are rich, well-connected, influential people only allowed to date other rich, well-connected, influential people? That’s the logical conclusion of this line of reasoning and it strikes me as ugly. Besides, soft power is complicated and sometimes the person who looks more powerful from the outside is less powerful in the relationship. But more importantly, if you are not in the relationship, it is not your business.
Of course if a person is pushy or unwilling to take a no, then it’s not a matter of consenting adults and it’s a different story.
Enforcing some sort of social sanction against other people’s private relationships on the basis of power differentials seems just incredibly outside the realm of common decency or healthy boundaries.
Hmm, we might be trying to use “community norms” differently? For example, if I thought we should have a norm that managers should abstain from alcohol at social events with people they manage I wouldn’t approach this by trying to get a group together to shame drinkers. Instead I’d talk casually with other EAs about whether this was a good norm to advocate for, ask in the EA Managers Slack, maybe write up something for the Forum (“Avoid Drinking With Reports?°”). Then if that got broad support (which it wouldn’t, but continuing) I’d try to convince orgs to have policies on this.
For a norm to be a norm, it needs to be enforced via social pressure (most commonly using shame, but other forms too) or else it is not really a norm. What would it mean to have a norm against drinking with reports if someone repeatedly and publicly got drunk with reports and proceeded to receive no social sanction of any kind? If by “norm” you strictly mean “advocacy for organizational policy” and not “exerting social pressure” then I am with you. However, that is not how most people use the term. Personally, I would react much more positively to a post that said “orgs should have policies against drinking with reports” vs. “avoid drinking with reports” (and for the record I fully support orgs having policies of not drinking with reports).
Maybe I should be saying “meta norm” or something? For many of these where I’d like it to be is something like “we agree that organizations should have policies against their employees from doing X”. So these would be norms about what policies EA orgs should have?
But there are also cases where I do think norms among individuals make sense (and should have included this in my comment above). For example, norms against people at EA meetups, especially organizers, hitting on first-timers.
Yes. I’d agree with that. Strong push for organizations, competitions, grant-makers and events to have norms addressing certain set of issues (i.e. we could have a “must address list”). Norms should be adjustable to a group character and stuff like the country’s culture. Plus some gentle community norms (it’s not ok for an event organizer/special guest to hit on first-timers). Plus empathetic helpline and even resource center for those, who ended up being in an ambiguous situation with regard to those norms, or have trouble setting them due to i.e. pre-existent interpersonal dynamics or even personal traits. So they are encouraged to be mindful, address problems, acknowledge mistakes and seek best solutions instead of being ashamed and try to sweep things under the rug. Would you agree? :)
While I agree that it’s good for this not to happen, a guest is probably the person there who has the least information about who the first timers are.
Yes, I’d agree. It wasn’t a very well thought-through example. If we remove a “special guest” part, would it make the whole comment more solid and understandable?
People in the EA community can and should try to influence organizations when we think they could be doing better; we don’t just consider it “their business” what they do. For example, StrongMinds should not be a top-rated charity (yet) was trying to convince GWWC to change an endorsement, and I’ve written some and myself. Approaches to interpersonal relationships have effects outside specific organizations, and individual organizations are often too small to put lots of time into carefully coming up with the ideal policies around these issues.
We do need to be careful not to flood organizations with nosy feedback, but if after talking on the Forum and elsewhere in the community it becomes clear that there’s wide support for a norm I think it’s pretty reasonable to try to make that case to organizations we think could benefit from it.
I have no problem advocating influencing other organization’s policies around behavior. I have a problem with trying to directly influence individuals’ behavior through community norms. As I said above, organizational policies are a) explicit, b) governed by consent, and c) structurally limited in scope whereas “community norms” that attempt to directly alter behavior through social sanction, public shaming, etc. are a) inherently murky, b) not governed by consent, and c) limitless in scope. For these reasons, organizational policy is much less likely to create a community full of intrusive and toxic behavior than the encouragement of community norms.
I still fail to see where the rest of us have standing to “establish norms” about this matter.
I took part of Jeff’s point to be that other people are affected when, e.g., a grantmaker sleeps with a grantee. The fact that we’re affected is what gives us standing to establish norms (and by “establish norms” we’re talking “politely discuss” not “create a norm-enforcing militia”).
We’d have standing to establish norms even if we weren’t part of a community; if the people renting the Airbnb next door throw a rager at 3am, I have standing to ask them to be quiet because their behavior affects me. When you add to this that EA is a social movement—a community of people working in concert with one another to achieve certain goals—we have even more standing (and arguably a responsibility) to help establish norms that facilitate the realization of these goals.
I would strongly push back against the idea that norms are about “politely discussing” appropriate behavior. Norms are about social pressure and getting into other peoples business. It is a contradiction in terms to say “doing or not doing x is a private decision that should be left up to the individual with no external social pressure to do x” and “it should be a norm to do x”.
Regarding the grant example, I have said and continue to believe that it is totally appropriate for organizations to impose conflict of interest policies including limiting romantic relationships between grantees and decision makers. But if the organization has no such policy then that is the issue.
I think the idea that people who are not you simply being in a relationship has anything like an effect on you that playing loud music at 3 am does is both wrong and unhealthy. If a grant-making organization doesn’t have a robust conflict of interest policy, isn’t that the organization’s fault? If it does have one, why do you need these norms on top of that?
I used to think that it was really unfair how people characterized ea as cultish but seeing the discussion lately around dating in ea/polyamory and the public shaming of individuals who have made some missteps just really reminds me of religions including the one I grew up in where people inexplicably feel justified in inserting themselves into other peoples private lives and then using public shaming to enforce these norms.
It’s one thing for an institution (grant maker, employer, university, etc.) or relationship (e.g. monogamous) to have a policy on what kind of relationships are forbidden on the grounds of conflicts of interest or unit cohesion or concerns about power dynamics because that is their business. I still fail to see where the rest of us have standing to “establish norms” about this matter.
I don’t like cheating or sleeping with your grantees or employee any more than the next person but these things are not my business and they aren’t yours either.
I say this all as someone who has been off the dating market for over a decade, so nothing directly applies to me but as someone raised in an oppressive religion, this is looking like my cue to exit.
Thanks for your input! From my perspective as one of the people talking about “establishing norms,” I can definitely do better to add nuance here.
As others have mentioned the issue is the blended lines between the professional roles and personal community is tough to navigate. I generally am in favor of classical liberal approaches to personal morality, but I do think that, as Jeff points out, these sorts of things can be other people’s business in a professional setting.
Imagine you rely on an EA grant for your job/livelihood, or work at an EA organization. You work extremely hard but don’t manage to get you grant renewed or get fired. Then you find out that someone else in a similar role slept with a grantmaker or a grantmaker’s friend, and won the grant over you.
How would that make you feel? Would you still feel it isn’t your business?
It’s one thing to say that it is my business that the grantmaking organization has a bad policy or bad enforcement of existing policy. In fact I do endorse organizations having robust and well-enforced conflict of interest policies.
What I do not endorse is the notion that, supposing I am in the situation you describe, I have standing to directly take issue with the people involved or their behavior. I don’t. If they are violating a policy and their employer doesn’t know about it, I have standing to notify the employer. If the employer has a bad policy, I have standing to publicly not support the employer. What I object to is the idea that “community norms” are an acceptable way of handling this situation (through direct shaming/socially sanctioning/publicly judging of the individual behavior rather than the organizational policy).
Organizational policies are explicit and governed by consent. If I don’t like the policy, I don’t have to work there. If I am unclear on what the policy is, I can read the employee manual. “Community norms” in contrast are murky/non-explicit and no one ever signs a form saying they now agree to enter this community with these rules. For this reason, they are vulnerable to arbitrarily expanding and being used in service of signaling conformity and allegiance rather than serving their alleged purpose. Similarly, organizations also only have jurisdiction over people for whom they actually have reason to care about these matters with and they do not have jurisdiction over people for whom they randomly decide to moralize about. “Community norms”, in contrast, invite everyone to be a busybody about everyone else. Count me out.
One concern about this approach is that much “soft power” does not flow through organizations. So expecting someone’s employer to regulate their independent “soft power” doesn’t seem right, even if the employer were willing to try. One potentially useful test is how much power and influence the person would wield tomorrow if they were fired today.
The origins of “soft power” are often nebulous, but it’s plausible to say that large portions of it come from the community itself, or at least from enough individual sources that the community is a decent proxy. So it’s plausible that, at least where “soft power” is concerned, the community is the closest analogue to the employer.
Policing the differentials in the “soft power” of other people’s relationships is precisely the sort of busybodying that I find so toxic and intrusive. Are rich, well-connected, influential people only allowed to date other rich, well-connected, influential people? That’s the logical conclusion of this line of reasoning and it strikes me as ugly. Besides, soft power is complicated and sometimes the person who looks more powerful from the outside is less powerful in the relationship. But more importantly, if you are not in the relationship, it is not your business.
Of course if a person is pushy or unwilling to take a no, then it’s not a matter of consenting adults and it’s a different story.
Enforcing some sort of social sanction against other people’s private relationships on the basis of power differentials seems just incredibly outside the realm of common decency or healthy boundaries.
That’s a good point! For example, to the extent that people listen to me, very little of it comes via my employer, even though I’m doing direct work.
Hmm, we might be trying to use “community norms” differently? For example, if I thought we should have a norm that managers should abstain from alcohol at social events with people they manage I wouldn’t approach this by trying to get a group together to shame drinkers. Instead I’d talk casually with other EAs about whether this was a good norm to advocate for, ask in the EA Managers Slack, maybe write up something for the Forum (“Avoid Drinking With Reports?°”). Then if that got broad support (which it wouldn’t, but continuing) I’d try to convince orgs to have policies on this.
For a norm to be a norm, it needs to be enforced via social pressure (most commonly using shame, but other forms too) or else it is not really a norm. What would it mean to have a norm against drinking with reports if someone repeatedly and publicly got drunk with reports and proceeded to receive no social sanction of any kind? If by “norm” you strictly mean “advocacy for organizational policy” and not “exerting social pressure” then I am with you. However, that is not how most people use the term. Personally, I would react much more positively to a post that said “orgs should have policies against drinking with reports” vs. “avoid drinking with reports” (and for the record I fully support orgs having policies of not drinking with reports).
Maybe I should be saying “meta norm” or something? For many of these where I’d like it to be is something like “we agree that organizations should have policies against their employees from doing X”. So these would be norms about what policies EA orgs should have?
But there are also cases where I do think norms among individuals make sense (and should have included this in my comment above). For example, norms against people at EA meetups, especially organizers, hitting on first-timers.
Yes. I’d agree with that. Strong push for organizations, competitions, grant-makers and events to have norms addressing certain set of issues (i.e. we could have a “must address list”). Norms should be adjustable to a group character and stuff like the country’s culture. Plus some gentle community norms (it’s not ok for an event organizer/special guest to hit on first-timers). Plus empathetic helpline and even resource center for those, who ended up being in an ambiguous situation with regard to those norms, or have trouble setting them due to i.e. pre-existent interpersonal dynamics or even personal traits. So they are encouraged to be mindful, address problems, acknowledge mistakes and seek best solutions instead of being ashamed and try to sweep things under the rug. Would you agree? :)
While I agree that it’s good for this not to happen, a guest is probably the person there who has the least information about who the first timers are.
Yes, I’d agree. It wasn’t a very well thought-through example. If we remove a “special guest” part, would it make the whole comment more solid and understandable?
People in the EA community can and should try to influence organizations when we think they could be doing better; we don’t just consider it “their business” what they do. For example, StrongMinds should not be a top-rated charity (yet) was trying to convince GWWC to change an endorsement, and I’ve written some and myself. Approaches to interpersonal relationships have effects outside specific organizations, and individual organizations are often too small to put lots of time into carefully coming up with the ideal policies around these issues.
We do need to be careful not to flood organizations with nosy feedback, but if after talking on the Forum and elsewhere in the community it becomes clear that there’s wide support for a norm I think it’s pretty reasonable to try to make that case to organizations we think could benefit from it.
I have no problem advocating influencing other organization’s policies around behavior. I have a problem with trying to directly influence individuals’ behavior through community norms. As I said above, organizational policies are a) explicit, b) governed by consent, and c) structurally limited in scope whereas “community norms” that attempt to directly alter behavior through social sanction, public shaming, etc. are a) inherently murky, b) not governed by consent, and c) limitless in scope. For these reasons, organizational policy is much less likely to create a community full of intrusive and toxic behavior than the encouragement of community norms.
I took part of Jeff’s point to be that other people are affected when, e.g., a grantmaker sleeps with a grantee. The fact that we’re affected is what gives us standing to establish norms (and by “establish norms” we’re talking “politely discuss” not “create a norm-enforcing militia”).
We’d have standing to establish norms even if we weren’t part of a community; if the people renting the Airbnb next door throw a rager at 3am, I have standing to ask them to be quiet because their behavior affects me. When you add to this that EA is a social movement—a community of people working in concert with one another to achieve certain goals—we have even more standing (and arguably a responsibility) to help establish norms that facilitate the realization of these goals.
I would strongly push back against the idea that norms are about “politely discussing” appropriate behavior. Norms are about social pressure and getting into other peoples business. It is a contradiction in terms to say “doing or not doing x is a private decision that should be left up to the individual with no external social pressure to do x” and “it should be a norm to do x”.
Regarding the grant example, I have said and continue to believe that it is totally appropriate for organizations to impose conflict of interest policies including limiting romantic relationships between grantees and decision makers. But if the organization has no such policy then that is the issue.
I think the idea that people who are not you simply being in a relationship has anything like an effect on you that playing loud music at 3 am does is both wrong and unhealthy. If a grant-making organization doesn’t have a robust conflict of interest policy, isn’t that the organization’s fault? If it does have one, why do you need these norms on top of that?