I think it seems pretty evil & infantilizing to force people to stay in their home country because you think they’ll do more good there. The most you should do is argue they’ll do more good in their home country than a western country, then leave it up to them to decide.
I will furthermore claim that if you find yourself disagreeing, you should live in the lowest quality of living country you can find, since clearly that is the best place to work in your own view.
Maybe I have more faith in the market here than you do, but I do think that technical & scientific & economic advancement do in fact have a tendency to not only make everywhere better, but permanently so. Even if the spread is slower than we’d like. By forcing the very capable to stay in their home country we ultimately deprive the world and the future from the great additions they may make given much better & healthier working conditions.
This is not a discussion about anyone forcing anyone to do anything (noone has suggested that), but the original question was about the degree we should potentially fund and support the best workers in our orgs to emigrate. This is a hugely important question, because from experience in Uganda with enough time and resources I could probably help almost any high level qualified and capable person to emigrate but is that really the best thing for me do?
As things stand every country in the world has huge restrictions on emigration, which does often “force” people to stay where they were born, something no one in this discussion thread has the power to do.
The most talented people from low income countries are often much better placed to improve up their own country than we are from richer countries, due to cultural knowledge and connections. In saying that I do agree that far more people from high income countries could be doing a lot of good living and working in low income countries.
Yes and no—the only concrete thing I see @WillieG having done was “sign[ing] letters of recommendation for each employee, which I later found out were used to pad visa applications.”
I would find refusing to write a letter of recommendation on “brain drain” concerns to go beyond not funding emigration efforts. I’d view this as akin to a professor refusing to write a recommendation letter for a student because they thought the graduate program to which the student wanted to apply was a poor use of resources (e.g., underwater basketweaving). Providing references for employees and students is an implied part of the role, while vetoing the employee or student’s preferences based on the employer’s/professor’s own views is not.
In contrast, I would agree with your frame of reference if the question were whether the EA employer should help fund emigration and legal fees, or so on.
Yep I completely agree with all that and would always write a letter for anyone! The kind of things he might be talking about I think are a bit more extreme like.
Funding people to masters courses especially at foreign universities.
Actively making connections with people in Western countries helping people get jobs and study opportunities there.
Helping people write really really good foreign visa and scholarship applications, putting a lot of time and effort into them and even potentially co-writing sections with people.
I’ve done all these things to varying extents and am less inclined to do so now to the same extent given the questions of the OP.
Yes and no—the only concrete thing I see @WillieG having done was “sign[ing] letters of recommendation for each employee, which I later found out were used to pad visa applications.”
Sounds like they did more than this, though the description is vague:
We invested a lot of time and money into training these employees, with the expectation that they (as members of the college-educated elite) would help lead human rights reform in the country long after our project disbanded.
I don’t understand this view. Would they want their initiative to be run by incompetent people? If not, in what world do they not train their staff? The fact that they also tacked on an expectation that they would not migrate does not mean that expectation was pivotal in their decision.
At this point I think we are reading tea leaves that the OP could easily clarify, but FWIW my interpritation was they invested more than they would have otherwise, e.g. in less specific training, because they thought this training was a secondary route to impact.
Hey @Larks sorry for the delay. I wanted to touch base with one of my old colleagues to make sure I’m remembering everything correctly from 10+ years ago.
Yes, our plan did have a lot of weight on training key locals that we took on as employees (notably lawyers, but also a journalist and a few other “civil society” figures). I was involved in some of the hiring process, and we were very up front about wanting people who were committed for the long-term.
If we had known that the average person was going to get a visa and leave in a few years, I don’t think we would have reduced the training investment, but would have tried to find a way to screen for people who would genuinely stick around. For example, we spent a lot of time stiff-arming a local government official’s demands to hire his nephew. (Definitely a bad look for a human rights org to be doing nepotistic favors.) But apparently the official and his nephew are pretty firmly rooted in the country, so maybe it would’ve been an OK long-term investment? No easy answers I’m afraid.
From my rationality-married-with-emotion-and-values human brain, I agree with you. Evil indeed.
That said, I can see a dystopian future where Hyper-Rationalist Bot makes all decisions, and decides that “the greatest good for the greatest number” is best served by keeping human capital in the developing world, using the EA logic that capital in the developing world creates more utility than the same capital in the developed world. (In fact, HRB thinks we should send capable people from the developed world to the developing world to accelerate utility growth even more.)
This seems pretty unlikely to me tbh, people are just less productive in the developing world than the developed world, and its much easier to do stuff—including do good—when you have functioning institutions, surrounded by competent people, connections & support structures, etc etc.
That’s not to say sending people to the developed world is bad. Note that you can get lots of the benefits of living in a developed country by simply having the right to live in a developed country, or having your support structure or legal system or credentials based in a developed country.
Of course, its much easier to just allow everyone in a developing country to just move to a developed country, but assuming the hyper rationalist bot exists with an open boarders constraint, it seems incredibly obvious to me that what you say would not happen.
If I can pull this thread...you previously wrote, “Maybe I have more faith in the market here than you do, but I do think that technical & scientific & economic advancement do in fact have a tendency to not only make everywhere better, but permanently so.”
In your opinion, is this an argument in favor of prioritizing pushing both EA money and people into communities like SV that are high-impact in terms of technological advancement?
When you start talking about silicon valley in particular, you start getting confounders like AI, which has a high chance of killing everyone. But if we condition on that going well or assume the relevant people won’t be working on that, then yes that does seem like a useful activity, though note that silicon valley activities are not very neglected, and you can certainly do better than them by pushing EA money (not necessarily people[1]) into the research areas which are more prone to market failures or are otherwise too “weird” for others to believe in.
On the former, vaccine development & distribution or gene drives are obvious ones which comes to mind. Both of which have a commons problem. For the latter, intelligence enhancement.
Why not people? I think EA has a very bad track record of extreme group think, caused by a severe lack of intellectual diversity & humility. This is obviously not very good when you’re trying to increase the productivity of a field or research endeavor.
I think it seems pretty evil & infantilizing to force people to stay in their home country because you think they’ll do more good there. The most you should do is argue they’ll do more good in their home country than a western country, then leave it up to them to decide.
I will furthermore claim that if you find yourself disagreeing, you should live in the lowest quality of living country you can find, since clearly that is the best place to work in your own view.
Maybe I have more faith in the market here than you do, but I do think that technical & scientific & economic advancement do in fact have a tendency to not only make everywhere better, but permanently so. Even if the spread is slower than we’d like. By forcing the very capable to stay in their home country we ultimately deprive the world and the future from the great additions they may make given much better & healthier working conditions.
This is not a discussion about anyone forcing anyone to do anything (noone has suggested that), but the original question was about the degree we should potentially fund and support the best workers in our orgs to emigrate. This is a hugely important question, because from experience in Uganda with enough time and resources I could probably help almost any high level qualified and capable person to emigrate but is that really the best thing for me do?
As things stand every country in the world has huge restrictions on emigration, which does often “force” people to stay where they were born, something no one in this discussion thread has the power to do.
The most talented people from low income countries are often much better placed to improve up their own country than we are from richer countries, due to cultural knowledge and connections. In saying that I do agree that far more people from high income countries could be doing a lot of good living and working in low income countries.
Yes and no—the only concrete thing I see @WillieG having done was “sign[ing] letters of recommendation for each employee, which I later found out were used to pad visa applications.”
I would find refusing to write a letter of recommendation on “brain drain” concerns to go beyond not funding emigration efforts. I’d view this as akin to a professor refusing to write a recommendation letter for a student because they thought the graduate program to which the student wanted to apply was a poor use of resources (e.g., underwater basketweaving). Providing references for employees and students is an implied part of the role, while vetoing the employee or student’s preferences based on the employer’s/professor’s own views is not.
In contrast, I would agree with your frame of reference if the question were whether the EA employer should help fund emigration and legal fees, or so on.
Yep I completely agree with all that and would always write a letter for anyone! The kind of things he might be talking about I think are a bit more extreme like.
Funding people to masters courses especially at foreign universities.
Actively making connections with people in Western countries helping people get jobs and study opportunities there.
Helping people write really really good foreign visa and scholarship applications, putting a lot of time and effort into them and even potentially co-writing sections with people.
I’ve done all these things to varying extents and am less inclined to do so now to the same extent given the questions of the OP.
Sounds like they did more than this, though the description is vague:
I think Jason is saying that the “support to emigrate” was limited to recommendations.
Yes, that’s correct.
It sounds like if his org had expected mass emigration they’d have spent less time making other human capital investments as well though.
I don’t understand this view. Would they want their initiative to be run by incompetent people? If not, in what world do they not train their staff? The fact that they also tacked on an expectation that they would not migrate does not mean that expectation was pivotal in their decision.
At this point I think we are reading tea leaves that the OP could easily clarify, but FWIW my interpritation was they invested more than they would have otherwise, e.g. in less specific training, because they thought this training was a secondary route to impact.
Hey @Larks sorry for the delay. I wanted to touch base with one of my old colleagues to make sure I’m remembering everything correctly from 10+ years ago.
Yes, our plan did have a lot of weight on training key locals that we took on as employees (notably lawyers, but also a journalist and a few other “civil society” figures). I was involved in some of the hiring process, and we were very up front about wanting people who were committed for the long-term.
If we had known that the average person was going to get a visa and leave in a few years, I don’t think we would have reduced the training investment, but would have tried to find a way to screen for people who would genuinely stick around. For example, we spent a lot of time stiff-arming a local government official’s demands to hire his nephew. (Definitely a bad look for a human rights org to be doing nepotistic favors.) But apparently the official and his nephew are pretty firmly rooted in the country, so maybe it would’ve been an OK long-term investment? No easy answers I’m afraid.
Thanks for clarifying!
From my rationality-married-with-emotion-and-values human brain, I agree with you. Evil indeed.
That said, I can see a dystopian future where Hyper-Rationalist Bot makes all decisions, and decides that “the greatest good for the greatest number” is best served by keeping human capital in the developing world, using the EA logic that capital in the developing world creates more utility than the same capital in the developed world. (In fact, HRB thinks we should send capable people from the developed world to the developing world to accelerate utility growth even more.)
This seems pretty unlikely to me tbh, people are just less productive in the developing world than the developed world, and its much easier to do stuff—including do good—when you have functioning institutions, surrounded by competent people, connections & support structures, etc etc.
That’s not to say sending people to the developed world is bad. Note that you can get lots of the benefits of living in a developed country by simply having the right to live in a developed country, or having your support structure or legal system or credentials based in a developed country.
Of course, its much easier to just allow everyone in a developing country to just move to a developed country, but assuming the hyper rationalist bot exists with an open boarders constraint, it seems incredibly obvious to me that what you say would not happen.
If I can pull this thread...you previously wrote, “Maybe I have more faith in the market here than you do, but I do think that technical & scientific & economic advancement do in fact have a tendency to not only make everywhere better, but permanently so.”
In your opinion, is this an argument in favor of prioritizing pushing both EA money and people into communities like SV that are high-impact in terms of technological advancement?
When you start talking about silicon valley in particular, you start getting confounders like AI, which has a high chance of killing everyone. But if we condition on that going well or assume the relevant people won’t be working on that, then yes that does seem like a useful activity, though note that silicon valley activities are not very neglected, and you can certainly do better than them by pushing EA money (not necessarily people[1]) into the research areas which are more prone to market failures or are otherwise too “weird” for others to believe in.
On the former, vaccine development & distribution or gene drives are obvious ones which comes to mind. Both of which have a commons problem. For the latter, intelligence enhancement.
Why not people? I think EA has a very bad track record of extreme group think, caused by a severe lack of intellectual diversity & humility. This is obviously not very good when you’re trying to increase the productivity of a field or research endeavor.