To get a pause at any time you have to start asking now. Itās totally academic to ask about when exactly to pause and itās not robust to try to wait until the last possible minute. Anyone taking pause advocacy seriously realizes this pretty quickly.
As Carl says, society may only get one shot at a pause. So if we got it now, and not when we have a 10x speed up in AI development because of AI, I think that would be worse. It could certainly make sense now to build the field and to draft legislation. But itās also possible to advocate for pausing when some threshold or trigger is hit, and not now. Itās also possible that advocating for an early pause burns bridges with people who might have supported a pause later.
What youāre looking for is permission to stay on this corrupt be-the-problem strategy and it shows.
I personally still have significant uncertainty as to the best course of action, and I understand you are under a lot of stress, but I donāt think this characterization is an effective way of shifting people towards your point of view.
As Carl says, society may only get one shot at a pause. So if we got it now, and not when we have a 10x speed up in AI development because of AI, I think that would be worse. It could certainly make sense now to build the field and to draft legislation. But itās also possible to advocate for pausing when some threshold or trigger is hit, and not now. Itās also possible that advocating for an early pause burns bridges with people who might have supported a pause later.
This is so out of touch with the realities of opinion change. It sounds smart and it lets EAs and rationalists keep doing what theyāre doing, which is why people repeat it. This claim that we would only get one shot at a pause is asinineā pause would become more popular as an option the more people were familiar with it. Itās only the AI industry and EA that do not like the idea of pausing and pretend like theyāre gonna withdraw support that we actually never had if we do something they donāt like.
The main thing we can do as a movement is gain popular support by talking about the message. There is no reliable way to ātimeā asks. None of that makes any sense. Honestly, most people who give this argument are industry apologists who just want you feel out of your league if you do anything against their interests. Hardware overhang was the same shit.
I personally still have significant uncertainty as to the best course of action, and I understand you are under a lot of stress, but I donāt think this characterization is an effective way of shifting people towards your point of view.
Ah, the EA āfuck youā.
I see, so other people (š) might not agree with me bc of how I say it, and rather than it being their responsibility to seek truth, thatās my fault for not behaving the way youā oops, I mean ātheyāā like. Itās just ineffective, so nobody listening has any responsibilities and should probably go back to working at an AI company.
Hey Holly, it sounds like youāre frustrated by how people in EA are engaging with the idea of a pause. Iām sure thatās really hard, and Iām sure I donāt know even a fraction of what youāve gone through. I know youāre doing this advocacy work because you care a lot, and I really appreciate that. You know that I personally support your work.
However, Iām worried that this thread is becoming unproductive, and risks making the Forum feel like less of a safe space[1].
In particular, my concern is that you are criticizing @Denkenbergeršø directly in a way that appears to come from nowhere. @Denkenbergeršø doesnāt say anything about their personal views on a pause before you respond with:
But honestly all I hear are excuses. You wouldnāt want to help me if Carl said it was the right thing to do or youād have already realized what I said yourself. You wouldnāt be waiting for Carlās permission or anyone elseās. What youāre looking for is permission to stay on this corrupt be-the-problem strategy and it shows.
In my opinion, this sort of accusation without evidence erodes the Forumās ability to be a safe community space for important discussions. If itās the case that Iām missing some context and you have personal beef with @Denkenbergeršø, then I donāt think the Forum is the appropriate place to hash that out.
To be clear, I think the following are broadly fine and often good (assuming adherence to our Forum norms):
Criticizing ideas or actions that you disagree with, or see flaws in
Accusing a person or org of doing harm when you have some evidence to back that up
Sharing your feelings, including feelings of hurt and frustration
Holding those in power accountable
Flagging issues about the EA community, especially those that you think others are too afraid to flag
Flagging when someone is potentially not being truth-seeking, or is otherwise not following Forum norms (ideally in a kind way because our norms are unusual compared to the rest of the internet)
So Iād like to suggest that you take a step back from this thread. If you find yourself getting frustrated at others on the Forum elsewhere, Iād suggest taking a break from those as well.
Youāve written some of the best posts on this Forum, and the Forum Team greatly values your contributions. At the same time, I also think itās important that the Forum continues to be a productive discussion space.
The Forum should be a great and safe space: weāre working on hard problems, and the internet can be rough! We donāt want arbitrary barriers to keep people from joining discussions on the Forum, we donāt want people to be miserable on the Forum, and we want to promote excellent discussions and content.
Civility and charitable discussionāthe Forum should feel like a breath of fresh air and a refuge of sanity. When you join a discussion on the Forum, you should be able to reasonably expect that the other people wonāt twist your words, wonāt call you names, etc.
Safetyāif users feel unsafe on the Forum ā theyāre being threatened, or theyāre worried that if they post, theyāll have to fend off trolls on their own, etc. ā thatās our problem. We need to prevent this.
I think you hit the nail on the headā this forum is not a safe space for me. Like you said, Iām an all-time top poster, and yet I get snobby discouragement on everything I write since I started working on Pause, with the general theme that advocacy is not smart enough for EAs (and a secondary theme of wanting to work for AI companies).
This is a serious problem given what the EA Forum was supposed to be. Itās not a problem with following your rules for polite posts, but itās against something more importantā the purpose of the Forum and of the EA community.
But, Iāve clearly reached the end of my rope, and since Iād like to keep my account and be able to post new stuff here, Iāll just stop commenting.
I see that you are getting some downvotes, and while I disagree with this comment in particular Iām glad that you are there in the arena strongly pushing your vision of the good :)
As Carl says, society may only get one shot at a pause. So if we got it now, and not when we have a 10x speed up in AI development because of AI, I think that would be worse. It could certainly make sense now to build the field and to draft legislation. But itās also possible to advocate for pausing when some threshold or trigger is hit, and not now. Itās also possible that advocating for an early pause burns bridges with people who might have supported a pause later.
I personally still have significant uncertainty as to the best course of action, and I understand you are under a lot of stress, but I donāt think this characterization is an effective way of shifting people towards your point of view.
This is so out of touch with the realities of opinion change. It sounds smart and it lets EAs and rationalists keep doing what theyāre doing, which is why people repeat it. This claim that we would only get one shot at a pause is asinineā pause would become more popular as an option the more people were familiar with it. Itās only the AI industry and EA that do not like the idea of pausing and pretend like theyāre gonna withdraw support that we actually never had if we do something they donāt like.
The main thing we can do as a movement is gain popular support by talking about the message. There is no reliable way to ātimeā asks. None of that makes any sense. Honestly, most people who give this argument are industry apologists who just want you feel out of your league if you do anything against their interests. Hardware overhang was the same shit.
Ah, the EA āfuck youā.
I see, so other people (š) might not agree with me bc of how I say it, and rather than it being their responsibility to seek truth, thatās my fault for not behaving the way youā oops, I mean ātheyāā like. Itās just ineffective, so nobody listening has any responsibilities and should probably go back to working at an AI company.
Hey Holly, it sounds like youāre frustrated by how people in EA are engaging with the idea of a pause. Iām sure thatās really hard, and Iām sure I donāt know even a fraction of what youāve gone through. I know youāre doing this advocacy work because you care a lot, and I really appreciate that. You know that I personally support your work.
However, Iām worried that this thread is becoming unproductive, and risks making the Forum feel like less of a safe space[1].
In particular, my concern is that you are criticizing @Denkenbergeršø directly in a way that appears to come from nowhere. @Denkenbergeršø doesnāt say anything about their personal views on a pause before you respond with:
In my opinion, this sort of accusation without evidence erodes the Forumās ability to be a safe community space for important discussions. If itās the case that Iām missing some context and you have personal beef with @Denkenbergeršø, then I donāt think the Forum is the appropriate place to hash that out.
To be clear, I think the following are broadly fine and often good (assuming adherence to our Forum norms):
Criticizing ideas or actions that you disagree with, or see flaws in
Accusing a person or org of doing harm when you have some evidence to back that up
Sharing your feelings, including feelings of hurt and frustration
Holding those in power accountable
Flagging issues about the EA community, especially those that you think others are too afraid to flag
Flagging when someone is potentially not being truth-seeking, or is otherwise not following Forum norms (ideally in a kind way because our norms are unusual compared to the rest of the internet)
So Iād like to suggest that you take a step back from this thread. If you find yourself getting frustrated at others on the Forum elsewhere, Iād suggest taking a break from those as well.
Youāve written some of the best posts on this Forum, and the Forum Team greatly values your contributions. At the same time, I also think itās important that the Forum continues to be a productive discussion space.
A relevant quote from our āModeration principlesā post:
I think you hit the nail on the headā this forum is not a safe space for me. Like you said, Iām an all-time top poster, and yet I get snobby discouragement on everything I write since I started working on Pause, with the general theme that advocacy is not smart enough for EAs (and a secondary theme of wanting to work for AI companies).
This is a serious problem given what the EA Forum was supposed to be. Itās not a problem with following your rules for polite posts, but itās against something more importantā the purpose of the Forum and of the EA community.
But, Iāve clearly reached the end of my rope, and since Iād like to keep my account and be able to post new stuff here, Iāll just stop commenting.
I see that you are getting some downvotes, and while I disagree with this comment in particular Iām glad that you are there in the arena strongly pushing your vision of the good :)