When I first read this article I assumed it was written in good faith (and found it quite helpful). However, at this point I think it’s correct to assume that “Mark Fuentes” (an admitted pseudonym which has only been used to write about Torres) is misrepresenting their identity, and in particular likely has some substantial history of involvement with the EA community, and perhaps history of beef with Torres, rather than having come to this topic as a disinterested party.
This view is based on:
Torres’s claims about patterns they’ve seen in criticism (part 3 of this; evidence I take as suggestive but by no means conclusive)
Some impressions I can’t fully unpack about the tone and focus of Mark’s comments on this post (and their private message to me) seeming better explained by them not having been a disinterested party than by them having been one
A view that we’re not supposed to give fully anonymous accounts the benefit of the doubt:
… in order not to be open to abuse by people claiming whatever identity most supports their points;
… because they’re not putting their reputation on the line;
… because the costs are smaller if they are incorrectly smeared (it doesn’t attach to any real person’s reputation).
With that assumption, I feel kind of upset. I’m not a fan of Torres, but I think grossly misrepresenting authorship is unacceptable, and it’s all the more important to call it out when it’s coming from someone I might otherwise find myself on the same side of an argument as. And while I expect that much of the content of the post is still valid, it’s harder to take at face value now that I more suspect that the examples have been adversarially selected.
Naaah this seems about right. I have always felt a bit this way about this post which is why I rarely share it. That said, smoke is predictive of fire, and I think that these stories can be written is a bad sign.
Also Émile does harass people a bit. I know people who agree with them more than I do who are scared to interact, they use their big reach to bother people, they stay focused on perceived slights for a long time. I would understand why someone would do this semi-anonymously, but refusing to suggests what you say.
I’d add that Mark’s rationale—“disclosure always carries some risk”—seems underspecified. I’m sure Mark, as a lawyer, can cobble together an NDA that sharply limits the verifier(s), and requires them to clear any reference to his name or identifying info from their computer after verification. Probably we’d be looking at flashing an ID, and providing a bar number / state of licensure. That would probably be enough, since AFAIK no major EA works as a public defender in NY.
OK actually there’s been a funny voting pattern on my top-level comment here, where I mostly got a bunch of upvotes and agree-votes, and then a whole lot of downvotes and disagree-votes in one cluster, and then mostly upvotes and agree-votes since then. Given the context, I feel like I should be more open than usual to a “shenanigans” hypothesis, which feels like it would be modest supporting evidence for the original conclusion.
Anyone with genuine disagreement—sorry if I’m rounding you into that group unfairly, and I’m still interested in hearing about it.
Maybe? It seems a bit extreme for that; I think 5⁄6 of the “disagree” votes came in over a period of an hour or two mid-evening UK time. But it could certainly just be coincidence, or a group of people happening to discuss it and all disagree, or something.
Yeah, I don’t know if that dynamic exists but it would be interesting if we could see what the forum looks like if you just count votes from different locations.
When I first read this article I assumed it was written in good faith (and found it quite helpful). However, at this point I think it’s correct to assume that “Mark Fuentes” (an admitted pseudonym which has only been used to write about Torres) is misrepresenting their identity, and in particular likely has some substantial history of involvement with the EA community, and perhaps history of beef with Torres, rather than having come to this topic as a disinterested party.
This view is based on:
Torres’s claims about patterns they’ve seen in criticism (part 3 of this; evidence I take as suggestive but by no means conclusive)
Mark refusing to consider any steps to verify their identity, and instead inviting people to disregard the content in the section called “my story”
Some impressions I can’t fully unpack about the tone and focus of Mark’s comments on this post (and their private message to me) seeming better explained by them not having been a disinterested party than by them having been one
A view that we’re not supposed to give fully anonymous accounts the benefit of the doubt:
… in order not to be open to abuse by people claiming whatever identity most supports their points;
… because they’re not putting their reputation on the line;
… because the costs are smaller if they are incorrectly smeared (it doesn’t attach to any real person’s reputation).
With that assumption, I feel kind of upset. I’m not a fan of Torres, but I think grossly misrepresenting authorship is unacceptable, and it’s all the more important to call it out when it’s coming from someone I might otherwise find myself on the same side of an argument as. And while I expect that much of the content of the post is still valid, it’s harder to take at face value now that I more suspect that the examples have been adversarially selected.
Naaah this seems about right. I have always felt a bit this way about this post which is why I rarely share it. That said, smoke is predictive of fire, and I think that these stories can be written is a bad sign.
Also Émile does harass people a bit. I know people who agree with them more than I do who are scared to interact, they use their big reach to bother people, they stay focused on perceived slights for a long time. I would understand why someone would do this semi-anonymously, but refusing to suggests what you say.
I’d add that Mark’s rationale—“disclosure always carries some risk”—seems underspecified. I’m sure Mark, as a lawyer, can cobble together an NDA that sharply limits the verifier(s), and requires them to clear any reference to his name or identifying info from their computer after verification. Probably we’d be looking at flashing an ID, and providing a bar number / state of licensure. That would probably be enough, since AFAIK no major EA works as a public defender in NY.
(If anyone disagreeing wants to get into explaining why, I’m interested. Honestly it would be more comforting to be wrong about this.)
OK actually there’s been a funny voting pattern on my top-level comment here, where I mostly got a bunch of upvotes and agree-votes, and then a whole lot of downvotes and disagree-votes in one cluster, and then mostly upvotes and agree-votes since then. Given the context, I feel like I should be more open than usual to a “shenanigans” hypothesis, which feels like it would be modest supporting evidence for the original conclusion.
Anyone with genuine disagreement—sorry if I’m rounding you into that group unfairly, and I’m still interested in hearing about it.
Could also be the Bay Area/UK voting dynamic.
Maybe? It seems a bit extreme for that; I think 5⁄6 of the “disagree” votes came in over a period of an hour or two mid-evening UK time. But it could certainly just be coincidence, or a group of people happening to discuss it and all disagree, or something.
Yeah, I don’t know if that dynamic exists but it would be interesting if we could see what the forum looks like if you just count votes from different locations.
Or indeed other kinds of clustering.