Hi! I’m Kyle (they/them).
Along with Andy Masley (Executive Director), I help run Effective Altruism DC. I am also a qualitative researcher of nonviolent resistance methods.
Hi! I’m Kyle (they/them).
Along with Andy Masley (Executive Director), I help run Effective Altruism DC. I am also a qualitative researcher of nonviolent resistance methods.
We received the following response to a survey, and I think it is relevant, given the topic of this episode:
Re: my impact. It wouldn’t let me put in my answer: -$100000. I’d pay to undo my involvement in EA.
Context for survey analyzers:
Organizers:
Andy, -------, Kyle, --- are great overall. I hear great things about them whenever I run into people who go to EA events, and they are warm and welcoming. I mostly see them at social events and I like them. I appreciate what you do for people and the causes you care about!
Gender: I’ve had no problems at EA events. I know of one woman who was hit on several times after meeting a guy at an EA event, didn’t like it, and wasn’t sure how to handle it. Organizers helped and he stopped hitting on her when he was asked to stop. From what I know, organizers handled it well. Good work.
My impact: (long answer)
My impact clearly went down as my involvement in EA went up.
I pretty desperately wish I could *pay* ~1/3 of my net worth to undo the negative consequences of my EA involvement, and go back to being productive and happy in a perfectly good career that is low impact by EA calculus. It was way better for me, EA friends and colleagues, and the world
when I unabashedly loved my old job and was a happy, productive human.
I first got involved via an EA DC reading group and a CEA fellowship in 2020. I read and talked to EA “bigwigs” a bunch around the world and was convinced by rational arguments and EA people that I was Needed in EA and it was The Right Thing To Do for someone with my rational+altruistic values, so I left my “low impact” career. That went badly. I was not productive, generous, or happy anymore and that lasted years. A lot of EAs I knew were suffering and still doing the work though, so I kept on. It got bad eventually and I tried to go back to my old career (working with kids), but I psychologically am not able to perform as well in my previous career either anymore. I have no other equivalent options. My planned lines of retreat if EA things failed (family support and going back to my old career) are not viable for unexpected reasons. I care a lot about career performance, so this has crashed my mental health and self-confidence and finances too.
My remaining options (much lower pay for more hours in a less interesting career) are clearly worse for professional and altruistic goals than what I was doing before, and may not even be possible. My life plans mostly went backwards.
I don’t want organizers to feel bad. I do want someone else to have a different experience. I was a rational person but I was not strong enough against rational arguments that I Was Needed In EA. I can instead point to ways that my head was convinced (via BOTECs, 80k, etc) to override clear data from my heart about what was not good for me personally to do.
What would have helped instead:
- asking me and others about Agreeableness or Neuroticism and present strong counterarguments to EA thought for those of us who are high in one or both
- Ask me where else I’m already volunteering or donating and *encourage me* to keep doing that. At first, only ask me to work on EA projects without dropping any other things. See how that goes first.
- Regularly present the counterargument to the EA approach of Maximizing Good at Scale via Your Career. Stop telling me I’m Needed in EA without first encouraging me to improve my current path a bit and see if that sticks. Find someone smart to be in regular conversation with new EAs and organizers who can remind people to *be patient*. Yes you may have short timelines, but I’m not ok with being collateral damage for the cause. Wait to see if people who contribute their time to other causes will *independently* choose to work on EA projects in a way that seems better for their life overall, before asking them to stop contributing time elsewhere to give to EA.
- Practice humility and gratitude aloud and often for people who keep the world running outside of EA. I’m really glad EAs are trying to keep it all from disappearing, but we do still need a bunch of other people who are keeping civilization running in the meantime. It’s a collaboration. Say that kind of thing aloud often to balance out this sort of thing —
- I overheard an AI-related EA organizer once say, “That would be stupid!” because someone suggested they should stop working unproductively on EA projects that were also making them miserable. Afaik, that was years ago and they are still unproductive and miserable. I heard another well-liked EA say to a friend who was considering a great non-EA job, “That’s nice, but what does that have to do with saving the world?”
I get where comes from but it’s not smart or healthy. People are different; they should not all do EA things.
Many EA organizers seem convinced that what worked well for them will work for others, and that anyone smart and interested in EA who is uncertain or unsatisfied with their current career should be nudged or pulled into an impact-oriented career (impact according to EA definitions). ‘The potential stress will be worth it!”
This is wrong. With some people (like me!) it is Bad for the world when we leave our existing careers.
I wish we told people this earlier and often:
When people are bored or unsatisfied with their job or the scope of their impact, that’s not necessarily a sign that EA will be better for them.
Boredom and frustration and inefficiency are part of a lot adult jobs, even EA jobs! It’s part of adulthood for most people to be bored and annoyed with the limited impact of their work sometimes, and when EAs are allergic to that fact, it’s at least partly a negative symptom of being a youth movement. It doesn’t always go deeper than that.
I admire people who shoulder ‘boredom for a cause.’ I admire and am thankful for people who make that cause “being able to care of and support myself and my family, plus maybe a few other people.”
It takes a lot of work to get to that point and sustain it for a lot of people in today’s economy. I’m thankful to people who find ways to give within work, and then ‘do more’ to give back outside of work after they’re professionally stable. They often have accumulated wisdom and slack in their life that I no longer have, which they can share with others.
I was seriously an all-around better person with a better life before I chose to prioritize EA goals over my other goals. That may be true for others too.
No one wanted it to turn out that way. But it did.
While EA orgs and work in EA cause areas sometimes are really cool, and it’s satisfying to choose problems to work on carefully and to be around lots of motivated people. But a lot of those orgs are also young and inexperienced still testing out healthy workplace culture and trying to do too many things. EA org staff are busy and their analysis of their impact is often not actually much deeper than a BOTEC and a prayer. I want people to learn that EA work is not necessarily Better or worth the sacrifice, even by EA metrics!
For many people, the Best Career Answer, the Most Good answer for them and for the world is for them to stay excited about the ways they can find satisfaction with the impacts they can have on colleagues and customers in their current career, set some clear professional and personal goals, gain skills to incrementally increase efficacy at work, draw self-esteem from being an ethical and reliable adult professional with interesting/useful hobbies, and increase the sources of satisfaction they have outside of work, including via donating or volunteering for things related to their areas of expertise.
This is not the sexy, prestigious, most ambitious answer that most EAs want for themselves. That’s ok, some EA-sympathetic people should go against the grain and truly decide for themselves what is Good for them. Healthy and smart EAs really really hope people will do that. People need to see and hear this message.
“EA Lite” (having a bit more impact wherever you are) has some good tools for thinking about work satisfaction. God, I’d be excited for the future of EA thinkers if there was at least one prominent, funded, ex-EA or EA-adjacent advocate who was working a “regular job” and creating content in the EA Lite vein for prospective and flailing EAs who really need to consider this line of thought for themselves.
For example, in Intro to EA Career content, get successful EA-adjacent people with “regular jobs” to regularly and persuasively argue that “EA says it’s rational to maximize how much good your job does. Conventional wisdom is not that. It may go badly for you to try to do that. Really consider conventional wisdom before you discard it. Conventional wisdom and data on life satisfaction data that jobs can be just stable jobs that support your goals, and Good Careers can take lots of forms.”…. Get someone successful who actually believes this to say it.
*Then* get someone successful who believes 80K stuff to present that.
Lastly, I know EAs are not going to evangelize fewer career changes. “Plan changes” are incentivized as a measure of impact and most EAs believe that what they believe is Good. But my plans changed and it was bad. How is that counted? I wanted that to be counted in this survey. It’s a number that should be credited to CEA and 80K too really, not solely EA DC. It was CEA fellowships, 80K, EA reading groups, and EAG(x)s as much as DC EA that got to me.
I am pretty [expletive] up now but I hope others figure out how to be less so.
Whoever reads this has permission to publish it in whole or in part somewhere.
I just want to give a quick shoutout to the whole Forum team. You have done an incredible job creating, testing, and implementing new features and navigating numerous highly complex issues throughout the year. Thank you for all you do!
(Wishing you a wonderful New Year’s, too!)
Thank you for writing this post and for your important work, Catherine, Anu, and Łukasz.
We (me and the rest of the EA DC team) are always trying to learn and make our community more inclusive. If I can somehow support you or your work, please do let me know.
Not wishing ill for people—particularly when harm (whether intentional or unintentional) occurs—is a central component of being compassionate. It is necessary to consider both those who have caused harm and those who are harmed, hence the phrasing of my original comment.
Firstly—thank you for stepping up at this crucial time for the EA community, Ben. I can only imagine how challenging it must be.
Some thoughts about the Strategy Fortnight: I think it was a good experiment on a platform that many in the community value highly (significantly more than I do). I enjoyed many of the posts, especially Will’s. It seems to have improved the quality and coordination of more targeted, constructive posts, and it increased short-term engagement around one particular initiative/topic. Still, those most likely to contribute in this manner are those who have strong connections in the community (or are regular Forum users; just look at who published the top posts). I see this as one piece of the community engagement/feedback puzzle (the EA Community Survey is another great example).
I would love to see additional initiatives experimented with. Just to name a few: A parliamentary model of decision-making across EA organizations (this is a bit complicated to explain succinctly; I would be happy to discuss it further); quarterly public/live meetings/events from each large organization in the EA space that are designed to increase transparency and engagement/feedback; and a leadership summit for EA org leaders to coordinate on cross-community strategy and develop a comprehensive risk assessment (of current and future risks to organizations and “the EA brand”) and relevant mechanisms to address these risks.
Thanks for your thoughtfulness about how to improve the community!
A majority of the pieces are not written in academic form, even though most include citations from academic sources. The most obviously academic pieces are 9 by Adams, 15 by Sanbonmatsu, and 16 by Crary.
I would categorize the book as largely “normal”. It pulls from a group of writers whose backgrounds and writing styles vary.
The highest-level takeaways (not my own views, except when “I/I’d” is included”):
EA is missing relevant data due to its over-reliance on quantifiable data
Effective does not equal impactful
Lack of localized knowledge and interventions reduces sustainability, adoption (trust), and overall impact
The lack of diversity, equity, and inclusion in the community produces worse outcomes and less impact. The same is said regarding considerations of [racial] justice.
EA neglects engagement with non-EA movements and actors; in addition to worse EA outcomes, it harms otherwise positive work. In short, EA undervalues solidarity.
I’d liken this to something along the lines of “EA doesn’t play nicely with the other kids in the sandbox”.
EA is too rigid and does not fair well in complex situations
EA lacks compassion/is cold, and though it is commonly argued this improves outcomes, it is more harmful than not
EA relies upon and reifies systems that may be causing disproportionate harm; it fails to consider that radical changes outside of its scope may be the most impactful
EA is an egotistical philosophy and community; it speaks and acts with certainty that it shouldn’t
Unfortunately, I never had the opportunity to speak or work with you directly, but your personal and professional reputations speak volumes.
I am sorry to hear about the toll this has taken on you; I hope this transition supports you on a healing journey. That you shared this and recognized what was needed is a testament to your leadership and care.
Thanks for all you’ve done for CEA and for the community. I wish you very well and look forward to seeing where your journey takes you. If I can somehow be supportive, please never hesitate to reach out.
This is true. My original comment has been edited to clarify my intent (as was later mentioned in a reply). The reference to thanks did more to confuse than to support. My apologies for the confusion.
As for the allegations of large-scale fraud: Yes, you’re correct that the situation has evolved several times, hence the numerous rephrases. Though, I am currently uncertain regarding whether fraud actually occurred. That said, I certainly agree that we should hold people to a high standard of ethical conduct.
It’s good to see that this is happening. I hope we will receive some updates after the Summit occurs.
I agree with Josh’s point and would like to expand on it a bit: I have noticed this same issue with other EA events—applications/admissions do not leave enough time for visa processing for people in many countries. I suspect some who would otherwise attend might be prevented from doing so for visa reasons alone, given the short notice.
Good luck and enjoy!
¡Esto es muy emocionante! ¡Felicitaciones a todos los involucrados!
Avíseme si puedo ayudar de alguna manera.
_______
This is SO exciting. Congratulations to all involved!
Please let me know if I can help in any way.
Having helped several through their PMF process and as someone who studied and worked in the International Affairs field, I really appreciate this post. Thank you for all of the thought and time that went into the post, and for your support and encouragement for those who might apply!
Relatedly, as one of the EA DC organizers: If anyone is contemplating a move to DC—I am always happy to talk about life in DC and/or EA policy work more generally. Feel free to send me an email, add me, connect, or schedule a time to chat.
Are there any updates on the EAGxs that were to be set somewhere in Africa and India? I have a bit of context on the latter but little on the former.
Will there be another elsewhere in Asia, similar to EAGxPhilippines?
Context: I have been a practicing Buddhist, primarily in the Plum Village Tradition, since 2011. In addition to my personal practice, I am currently training to become a “lay monastic” (essentially, just doing more formal Sangha-building).
First and foremost, I appreciate your openness about your experience. I definitely understand how frustrating this can be, and you are certainly not alone in this. I feel comfortable in assessing that most, if not all, struggle with this to some extent—even years into practice. Myself included. There are so many variables that impact one’s ability to be present and mindful, and it is important to be compassionate toward yourself whenever this happens for you.
Broadly, what has helped me in my own practice is not conceptualizing meditation as meditation = sitting meditation. There are many forms of meditation (walking, deep relaxation/resting, hugging, eating, etc.) and every moment is an opportunity to be mindful and present. Another aspect of this particular tradition that I have found helpful is to move away from conceptualizing meditation and mindfulness as means to an end (consequentialist/utilitarian-esque thinking), and rather, as the end in itself (this is largely how it is regarded in my main tradition, but others regard meditation as [TLDR:] the way to enlightenment).
I have also found that more diligently studying the sutras/teachings/texts/history has deepened my understanding and helped my practice, but I have simultaneously worked to avoid over-intellectualizing; instead, working to embody the practices and to integrate them into my daily life (incrementally over time, even if it is just a few seconds of being more mindful per day/week/month).
As for jumping into a retreat—results vary drastically. Some find this beneficial, others find it extremely challenging and occasionally harmful (the latter is often true if people are struggling with deep emotional/psychological topics). I tend to encourage people to try a one-day retreat, maybe a weekend, rather than going all in on a week or more. It may also be worth considering which type of retreat you partake in; I would recommend doing research and tuning into what sounds best based on your wants/needs at the time you are searching. I attend retreats in various traditions throughout the year, but I most often attend retreats at Plum Village centers, as I have found that style most suitable for my wants/needs. I do find that other retreats/traditions can be more helpful at different points.
It is difficult to discuss this at length in a comment format, but I would be happy to hear more about your experience and discuss it further, if you think doing so would be beneficial (others are welcome, too). Feel free to schedule some time for us to chat.
In the interim, I am happy to answer questions here, in a message, or by email.
Is it possible to include title and organization on name badges (ideally, this would be optional)?
Sharmake—Erme is correct. The original comment was edited for clarity.
While this is all being sorted and we figure out what is next, I would like to emphasize wishes of wellness and care for the many impacted by this.
Note: The original post was edited to clarify the need for compassion and to remove anything resembling “tribalism,” including a comment of thanks, which may be referenced in comments.