Thanks for the comments! I also wanted to clarify one thing—I’m not talking only about super serious cases—i.e. criminals or abusers. I think that a much more common system failure would be to over-trust “small” grifters who live from one grant to another, people who don’t keep secrets including professional secrets, those who are permanently incompetent and unwilling to change that etc. I think that those people, if not “caught” early enough can also cause a lot of trouble and minimize impact of even the best initiative.
Also, you know, it’s absolutely great to have a feeling that you can trust all people in the room you are in. I think there’s a huge value in creating such environment. But I have no idea how to do that in case of EA—it seems to big, to rich, and growing to fast. I guess in this case some super effective system would be needed, but again, I don’t know. Maybe, sadly but very possibly, it’s impossible in case of such an environment—if yes, we need to adjust our assumptions and behavior, and probably we should do it fast.
Liv
I didn’t have that in mind :). But let me think about it.
Maybe there’s something to it (my epistemic status is—I just thought about it—so please be critical). The majority of the EA community consists of super young overachievers who strongly believe that one’s worth needs to be proven and can be measured. There is also a small portion of the community which is much older, mature and simply impressive. I don’t know if it causes the community to be cultist, but it may enable it.
I personally don’t feel any “authority idealization” vibes in the EA, rather quite the opposite. I have a pretty strong intuition that if I wanted to disagree with some EA “celebrity” I would be more than encouraged to do so, treated as a thought partner (If I have good arguments) and thanked for a valid criticism. I also believe I could approach any EA person and just chat to them if we both wanted to chat, because why not, and if in the process I learn that this person is famous, well, ok, wouldn’t change the tone of the conversation. That being said, I have a pretty strong personality myself and I’m not intimidated easily. Plus, I’m in my late twenties, so older than the majority of the EA new joiners, which may be important here.
I don’t think that creating celebrities and hierarchies is avoidable, I don’t believe that saying that some people are impressive is bad. I also think that it’s super hard to stop people idealizing you if you are a leader, especially when internet and community structure allows random people to have some insight into your private life. I also believe that if somebody keeps idealizing celebrities, a good “first step” is to seriously reflect on that schema and work on ones mindset first. I would not shift the blame on the “celebrities” or “community” only, because if the schema of “authorities” exists, the first step to break it is to make “fans” more self-aware, self-sufficient and causative.
I however think that the topic is worth investigating and chatting about. All of the above being said, celebrities should take responsibility for their power. Blogs and websites should avoid creating idealized portraits of the leaders. Everybody should have equal right to speak and disagree with a “head” of any organization, and everybody should be equally criticized in case of saying untrue statements or any wrongdoing. Active idealization should be treated as a bias—because it is a bias—so a mistake to work on. Finally there definitely should be systems which could stop those with more power from abusing it in case they try to.
Do you actually know if somebody checked to what extent “being cultist” is a problem in EA? And if it’s more than in any other group? I wonder what would be a result of such a research.
I felt a bit stressed when I saw that the discussion turned into talk about ASPD, and now I realized why.
Firstly, we should hold accountable all people who display unwanted behavior, doesn’t matter their diagnosis. I’m afraid that the focus on ASPD will shift our attention from “all abusive/offensive/deceitful behaviors shouldn’t be accepted” to “let’s be careful if somebody has ASPD”. I think that focusing on (especially repeating) behaviors and consequences is a much better strategy here.
Secondly, it’s hard to diagnose somebody, and doing so in a non-clinical setting is unethical and very hard, so if we start worrying about letting people with ASPD “into EA” we have no way to actually prove or disprove our point. But some people may end up trying, and home-made psychoanalysis is well, not good.
So, to summarize—I personally just think that shifting the focus from “how to trace overall unwanted behavior” to “if EA may attract people with ASPD” may yield worse results.
Hi.
I’m going to talk about sexism in particular here, since it was this problem mentioned in the declaration, which I had a chance to experience in my life personally..
I agree with every single point Duncan made, and I felt relieved seeing it.
To add up to it, the declaration doesn’t make me feel safe, quite the opposite, I feel that my “safe place where we are serious about problems and take the best possible actions to fight them” got a bit invaded (it’s simply my own, purely emotional reaction—but since, I guess, this post was made to make me feel safe, let me share it). I am a part of the EA, because I’m impressed with how effective it is. I wish sexism was treated in the same way as malaria, because I think it deserves it. I want it to be eradicated. And I believe it’s possible. I don’t believe this declaration helps.
.
To me, the words used in the declaration feel empty and, to be frank, sometimes so vague that I have trouble understanding what exactly you wanted to communicate. I certainly can’t say what exact actions do you declare to take.
Here are the actions I think would be better:
- Sexism is a VERY broad topic.I’d like to see which particular embodiment of sexism you, as community leaders, identify as the most prevalent and harmful. I would really like your analysis to be country or culture specific. I’d like to see numbers, and if not, solid qualitative analysis.-I’d like to see a comparison of the impact of each of the forms of sexism to another issues the community faces—also the ones which are not spoken about or haven’t been recently mentioned by the mainstream media
- If in the process you decide that fighting a particular form of sexism or other discrimination is not something we should do (i.e. because it is not neglected) please—focus your resources on those in the community, who suffer more.
- I’d like to see plans of specific actions you want to take, addressing specific community issues (i.e. specific forms of sexism). I’d like to see evidence on how the actions are going to help and why they are the best solution.
- I’d like to see vivid, open, rational, honest discussion about how exactly each defined problem can be addressed—and if it’s defined properly. I’d like the problem to be approached from so many angles, that we are left with its pure and strict definition, and with bullet proof action plan.
- Also, if you decide to deal with a particular form of community problem (i.e. particular form of sexism), I’d like to know what is it, how does it manifest, if it concerns me (i.e. because of my age or location), how do I avoid it, how can I help if needed. If this particular problem concerns me personally, I’d love to be asked on how I am affected and how you can help—I’d like to feel listened to.
- Then, I’d like to see your chosen actions helping the community to be better. I’d like the impact to be measured and learned from.
Maybe you are currently working on all or some of the above. If yes, I think it would be helpful to me if you mentioned specific efforts of yours in the post, because this context certainly would change my perception. If you are not working on it, I think this post not supported by similar efforts may actually have a negative impact (please see Duncan’s arguments, I agree with them).
My personal reaction: I know you are scared and emotional, I am too. This post however, crossed my boundary.
I’m a woman, I’m in my late 20s and I’m going to do what you call sleeping around in the community if it’s consensual from both sides. Obviously, I’m going to do my absolute best to be mature in my behaviors and choices in every way. I also believe that as the community we should do better job in protecting people from unwanted sexual behavior and abuse. But I will not be a part of community which treats conscious and consensual behavior of adult people as their business, because it hell smells like purity culture for me. And it won’t do the job in protecting anybody.
I’m super stressed by this statement.
In this situation, under this post, and given your voting pool, it is not half as vulnerable as it could be if I was a man, especially a “socially not skilled” one (often = non—neurotypical) . So I could pretty easily write it, as in this particular position I felt in a position of power.
I’m not saying that age/power/money/any other differences should be ignored when it comes to consent. I believe we should, as a general rule in the community, discourage grantmakers sleeping with grantees. This post, however, doesn’t stop there, at least to my understanding. And this is what I disagree with.
Yes, I was saying it in my first sentence. Everything which goes beyond that is crossing personal boundaries (at least of mine). This post in my opinion doesn’t talk about the examples you’ve mentioned above. It talks about two people who have no professional connection, but happen to be EA, at least to my understanding.
Is my position clear to you now? If not, please let me know, I’ll try to explain it better.
Yup, I understand that it was most probably the intention, but this post doesn’t do a good job stressing it enough in my opinion. It says that those are people who should consider not doing that in particular, but it’s not directed only to them.
Plus, even if this post is directed only towards “not socially skilled men in a high position of power” asking them not to sleep around violates the same boundary- not mine, but it’s still against my values. Consensual relationship between adult people, as long as one of them is not a supervisor/senior/grant-maker of another, is none of community’s business, unless we are in church.
Yes, it was. Let me make it clear—there was still a significant power imbalance and he ignored it, which I believe is stupid.
Regardless, my boundary stays exactly in the the same place. And for the context, I’ve experienced creepy people, unwanted sexual behavior and harassment many times (not in EA, to be clear), more than three times it was serious, some of the instances were when I was a minor. Still wouldn’t trade it for something I believe is (a soft version, but still) a purity culture, as such culture is something I’ve experienced as well and it harms more (and it would harm more not only me, but also other people if imposed, in my opinion). Moreover, I believe some of the harassment I’ve experienced was encouraged by such culture because imposing such rules also has serious, not always obvious consequences. I know that right now it may seem like a good thing to do, as many believe that recent situation was a fruit of “too much sexual freedom” and “sleeping around”, and you really want to try something even extreme to be safe. I’d say—it’s a trap. But feel free to try it, if you want and it’s good for you and your personal integrity, I honestly wish you the best.
In the same time, I’m not going to support it, my boundary stays the same and I’m not going to change my actions. I’m going to keep sleeping around, and you have exactly the same power over it, as, for example, any type of church does—which is none or very little. If it turns out that I meet with a backlash or interacting with the community stops being for me, I’m ok with that.
Thanks for the answer! After reading your comments, I’m a bit confused now—I’m not sure if I misinterpreted your post heavily, but we agree on some points, or I red your post correctly and we still disagree.
As for you being emotional, yes, I assumed that based on your answer, but shouldn’t have done so, I’m sorry.
It would be helpful for me to understand, if you agree with the points below:
You should consider not engaging in “random” and not “well thought through” sexual activities within the community at all
This especially holds if you a) are a cis het men b) you know you are not a master of reading social interactions c) you are in any position of power—even if you are not a direct supervisor of a person
In those settings relationships in which a person you sleep with is your “the most, and if you are poly—only special person” with whom you have a very deep connection are still fine.
This is how I understood your post, and I have multiple reasons to disagree with all points and regard them as problematic.
I would agree with:
1. You should strongly consider not engaging in “random” and “not well thought through” sexual activities within the community with anyone towards whom you are in a direct position of power.
2. While engaging in any random or not well thought through activities, please: a) if you are not a master of social interactions, do your best to learn mechanisms which prevent harm b) if you are in a position of power in EA in general, never ignore this dynamics and learn how to address it. If you are much older than the person you hook up with, remember—even if they seem mature, you are in a position of power. If you suspect you may fail to understand somebody’s boundaries, stop engaging in random encounters immediately and go ask for help. This is a skill which can be learned. c) if you are not in a position of power, do your best to learn how to clearly and assertively state your boundaries. If you suspect that you’ll have trouble doing that, stop engaging in random encounters immediately and ask for help. This is a skill which can be learned.
3. Poly relationships pose a set of different challenges than monogamy and our general culture provides very little guidelines on how to do them well. If you are engaging in a complex polyamorous dynamics, make sure you have mental space to do so appropriately. Take social misconceptions about polyamory and metaamorus dynamics into consideration. They can be hard, so if you are not ready to take it, consider possible monogamy/address your concerns in a safe setting.
In the same time, I strongly acknowledge that people have right to make mistakes and sexual interpersonal interactions are difficult and sexual usually full of emotions, so there will be conflicts, misunderstandings, mistakes. I believe no social or religious rules on the world change that, “a culture of being more modest ” certainly doesn’t. Education, communication, empathy and emotional maturity from both sides on the other hand, works wonders. So I’d like to see more of that within the community.
Also, just so you know, I am going to discuss under this post today, but after that I am making a major break from discussion on the forum for some mental health :). So I may not answer to your comments.
Something which I think is sometimes lost in community building discussions is that the stakes we’re playing for are extremely high. My motivation to join EA was primarily because I saw major problems in the world, and people that were extremely dedicated to solving them. We are playing for the future, for the survival of the human race.
Yeah, thanks for this post. I got a bit invested in some of the recent discussions here. Then I looked on my “EA to do list” (which is long, has very little to do with the recent situation, and certainly nothing to do with sh*tstorming on the forum) and I realized I lost focus.
So I don’t know if we are going to split or not, I’m leaving it to community builders, it’s not my focus area. Yes or no, my “to do list” stays the same.
I think I found the crux.
I treat EA as a community. And by “community” I mean “a group of friends who have common interests”. In the same time, I treat some parts of EA as “companies”. “Companies” have hierarchy, structure, money and very obvious power dynamics. I separate the two.
I’m not willing to be a part of community, which treats conscious and consensual behavior of adult people as their business (as stated under the other post). In the same time, I’d be more than happy to work for a company which has such norms. I actually prefer it this way, as long as they are reasonable and not i.e. sexist, polyphobic and so on.
I think a tricky part is, EA is quite complex with this regard. I don’t think the same rules should apply to interest groups, grant-makers, companies. I think a power dynamic between grant-maker and grantee is quite different from the one which applies to university EA group leader and group’s member. I believe, that the community should function as a group of friends, and companies/interest groups should create their own, internal rules. But maybe it won’t work for the EA. Happy to update here, I, however, want to mention that for a lot of people EA is their whole life and the main social group. I would be very careful while setting the general norms.
(When it comes to “EA celebrities”, I think it’s a separate discussion, so I’m not mentioning them here as I would like to focus on community/workplace differences and definitions first. )
Yeah, totally agreed that it’s not that clear and easy. My comment was meant to be a starting point. I purposefully kept it pretty short and focused on one, easy conclusion, as the whole issue is super complex, I don’t have it well-thought through and I’m probably missing a lot of information and context.
I think however, that the whole discussion is over-focused on sex and polyamory, and not focused enough on other interpersonal connotations which for sure happen in a community like that (friendships? living together? Ex-partners?).
Just wanted to clarify, I don’t think that the resistance to the stricter norms is only about “wanting to have more fun”. I agree with your comment. Yet, I think you are missing at least couple of important aspects of the situation.
Hm, I understand now. I, however think that things like meaningful relationships are not a matter of personal enjoyment but mental health. So for me the price of what you call “the norms which diminish fun” would be much higher and may actually minimize community’s impact in the long term. We already have the issue with burnouts.
Ok, I have a question, which is a bit crucial in this whole discussion. I know it may be unpleasant to see it being asked, but I think sbd should do so, doesn’t matter if the answer seems obvious for some. Are we trying to solve an actual problem here and how sure are we about it? For example, do we have an actual evidence, such as hard data (but may be other), or a very strong understanding that consent or relationship norms in the EA are problematic? How possible is it that we all just reacted emotionally and randomly focussed on this issue? Maybe consent norms are ok but we have a problem with a group of people who cannot healthily implement them. Or something similar. I’m sure there’s some issue, but I think it’s important to define it well.
I didn’t take your comment personally :). I think it will be very hard for many EA people to find meaningful relationship outside the crowd for many various reasons, pretty unusual worldview being one of them. As for meaningful relationships who don’t violate the norms—sure. They will do it also . But who people fall in love or desire with is not guided by “community norms” but biology ect. Yeah, we can control ourselves—but to the certain extent. So too strict or unskillfully placed norms don’t solve the issue but end up in shame, frustration and lying. Which does everything but contributes to mental health and effectiveness. So I am pro loose norms and constant work on emotional maturity, communication and systemic, flexible and adjustable intervention systems.
Hi, I’m pretty new here, so pls correct me if I’m wrong. I had, however, one important impression which I think I should share.
EA started as a small movement and right now is expanding like crazy. The thing is, it still has a “small movement” mentality.
One of the key aspects of this is trust. I have an impression that the EA is super trust-based. I have a feeling that if somebody calls themselves EA everybody assumes that they have probably super altruistic intentions and most of the values aligned. It is lovely. But maybe dangerous?
In a small movement everybody knows everyone and if somebody does something suspicious, the whole group can very easily spread the warning. In a large groups, however, it won’t work. So if somebody is a grifter, an amoral person, just an a*hole or anything similar—they can super easily abuse the system, just by, for example, changing the EA crowd they talk to. I have an impression that there was a push towards attracting the maximum number of people possible. I assume that it was thought through and there is a value added in it. It, however, may have a pretty serious cost.