Strong agree, with obvious exceptions for things like “actually I already knew this person before and was going to ask them out anyway” (though even then it might be best to not ask them out at the event).
Patrick Sue Domin
Karma: 344
I would agree with you in the overwhelming majority of cases, but I would make exceptions in cases where the differences are relevant and large and the issue is important (all of which I think apply here).
I’m sorry you feel those things. In particular, I’m sorry you feel judged. My intention here was not to judge anyone as being a bad person or anything like that, but to point towards behaviours that I think are harmful largely in a diffuse way given their prevalence in the community and aspects of tight-knit groups.
I’m sorry you feel that way. For clarity’s sake, I don’t think sex is “bad”, but instead that it is often “messy”, and that there are costs with messiness within the community. I think at the very least, more people should consider the potential messiness here in their personal decisions. And while I think there can be large messiness involved in being polyamorous with multiple people from within the same tight-knight community, I don’t think the post is as harsh towards polyamory/nonmonogamy as your comment suggests.
For clarity’s sake, my point isn’t that people are “bad” if they try to sleep around, but that there can be subtle harms if people do it within a tight-knit community, and that we’d be better if people did it less within EA.
“Taboo” is also stronger than what I’d want here.
I don’t think I’m scared and I don’t think I’m particularly emotional about this issue. I do think that if more people in the community followed the points in this piece then the community as a whole would be more functional and more welcoming (though I admit there are some people who would find it less welcoming). My feelings on this issue are not recent, and I’ve been feeling this way since long before the TIME’s article, though recent revelations regarding Owen are what tipped me over into actually writing a post about this.
I basically agree with Jeff’s points here and here.
I understand that these are very personal issues, which is why my suggestion was for people to “consider avoiding” certain behaviours (factoring in potential negative second order effects they may not be focused on) instead of saying people should simply “avoid” these behaviours or that we should ban them outright. I notice your comment focuses on consent and abuse, so that makes me think you might think I’m placing “sleeping around” in a similar category to things like sexual assault. I absolutely do not think this (if I did, I would not have suggested that it’s fine for people to sleep around as much as they want outside the community).
I also don’t think this is about purity. The emotions I feel towards the community here are more like frustration that the current setup seems (to me) to be hurting community functionality and welcomingness, and not at all like disgust, which is what I think I’d feel if it was about purity.
I disagreed with your comment (despite obviously agreeing with my own post), so let me explain why. First (as I describe here), I think your proposal may actually increase uncomfortability and awkwardness, which is what the post was largely written to address. Second (as I described to Jeff here), I think dating within EA doesn’t necessarily involve the issues I’m concerned with, and I think your proposal would decrease dating within EA more than mine would. Third, I think your proposal would involve spending weirdness points, while mine would involve saving weirdness points.
Also, for clarity’s sake to address the comment “it’s better than a ban”, I’m not proposing an externally imposed ban. I think an explicit ban would be harmful and I do not endorse one.
I think this is the sort of thing that might make sense in the abstract, but that in practice would probably lead to more awkwardness and uncomfortability for many people. Imagine if you’re used to being the person on the receptive end instead of the initiating end. In that case, you may find it uncomfortable to initiate and escalate. But your system may involve this person making the move at every single step. They’d have to be the first to flirt, to ask the other person out, to go for the first kiss, and so on. This feels like it could be compounding uncomfortability for a lot of people who aren’t used to making those sort of moves. I also think asking people to take on roles they’re not used to filling would increase the amount of missed signals, which would increase awkwardness. There might also be confusion about which party should be in which role (what if there’s a higher-status woman and a lower-status man, or if there’s two people who are socially clumsy in different ways).
I think there was a slight breakdown in communication and you’re imagining I’m proposing more restriction than I am. Flirting can still have plausible deniability as it could be interpreted as any of “they’re just engaging in friendly banter”, “they’re flirting as flirting, but just for a spark”, “they’re feeling out whether or not they’re interested in me”, “they’re somewhat interested in me, but that could change”, “they’re secretly in love with me”, etc. If everyone in EA were to avoid sleeping around in the sense I’m using it, I think the only interpretation that would be taken away would be “they want to have sex with me but don’t want anything serious”.
I also think EAs can follow this and still casually date other EAs from the perspective of being open to seeing where it goes, though that might mean taking things a little slower physically. Personally, if I were to date someone outside of EA, I might have sex with them on the first or second date (thought process “I’m attracted to them so why not”), but if I were to date someone in EA I’d probably wait until something like the fourth or fifth date (thought process “oh wow, I’m excited by this person and I think there’s a chance we could develop into something serious”), though I could also imagine exceptions where things were clearer earlier and where I’d sleep with an EA on the first date (I’m definitely not trying to propose a community norm here of a certain specific number of dates before sex). This all also seems to be how people in most companies and other functional tight-knit communities generally approach dating within the group.
And by “serious” I didn’t mean “marriage or similar”, so I think “might be the one” is a much higher bar than I meant.
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Hot tubs at least seem fine. I can’t imagine anyone feeling offended or creeped out by being asked at a party if they want to join a hot tub the way they might if they’re propositioned for sex (at least, unless there’s more going on in the situation). I’ve heard of the cuddle puddles at Bay Area parties but I’m not familiar enough with them to have an informed view there.