Vgvt

Karma: 62

Vgvt 8 Feb 2022 16:41 UTC
11 points
0 ∶ 0
on: The Case for Rare Chinese Tofus
My main worry is that efforts to popularize traditional Asian food will backfire, due to the use of fish sauce in many recipes, Peruvian anchovetas are the most heavily exploited vertebrate, and due to the high number of deaths needed per unit of food compared to other animals, a slight increase in anchovy consumption could easily outweigh any gains in cattle/pig/chicken etc. welfare. (though use of fishmeal as animal feed for chickens/pigs complicates this)
https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/n9tsnx/soybeans_are_grown_for_their_oil_we_only_feed_it/ any thing that increases soybean meal consumption (over other plant based foods) may be better then other foods because they would slightly raise the price of soybean meal for livestock owners (though this may just lead to the same number of animals being fed worse nutrition?) , conversely soybean oil, a byproduct of soybean meal, would ideally be avoided to avoid subsidizing animal feed
https://arstechnica.com/science/2013/05/when-it-comes-to-the-environment-conservatives-dont-like-conserving/ We know that American moderates and Conservatives are actively turned away by eco-conscious messaging, and will pay more for less environmentally friendly methods. Combine this with strange ideas of less resource demanding lifestyles as dictatorial conspiracies for control by a liberal elite in some sci-fi dystopia ” I will not live in a pod/ I will not eat the bugs/ soylent green is people ” , anti-PRC sentiment, Ideas about east-Asians people being more feminine/collectivist/passive then white-Americans, The estrogen myth, and the Idea that caring about others (and therefore eating plants) is unmasculine, any Organized effort to get Americans to eat more tofu will have to be done very carefully to avoid massive backfire.

Vgvt 16 Jun 2022 6:49 UTC
10 points
0 ∶ 0
in reply to: Charles He’s comment on: Steering AI to care for animals, and soon
It is a minor point But I would like to pushback on some misconceptions involving “panda conservation”, mostly by paraphrasing the relevant chapter from Lucy Cookes The Truth About Animals.

Contrary to headlines about libidoless pandas driving themselves extinct, the main reason pandas are going extinct is the main reason animal species in general are going extinct, habitat loss as humans take and fracture There land.

Giant Pandas almost entirely rely on bamboo for food , bamboo engages in synchronous flowering with the other bamboo plants in the area and then Seeds and dies off, because of this it is important that the pandas have a wide range of space they can travel across not only to mate with other pandas, but to access new bamboo forests when The ones they live in die.

These forests even in “ protected” areas, are threatened by mining, roads, and agriculture.

Meanwhile , giant pandas become an international symbol of China, China sends pandas to its allies as gifts, or loans them to foreign zoos at a million dollars per year( these rules also applying to any offspring born in the foreign countries), and panda cubs draw in domestic tourism, and large numbers are bred of an animal that doesn’t breed well in captivity, to release 10 socially maladjusted giant pandas 8 of which don’t survive.

Pandas aren’t hogging conservation dollars because 1)the money isn’t /conservation money/ that would go to other species, It’s politics and business 2)The benefits that would protect wild pandas, ( protecting large intact tracts of land) would also help a wide array of wildlife, this is a general trend of megafauna, they need more space and are disproportionately impacted by habitat loss, which is the leading cause of species extinction, and they are charismatic, functioning as umbrella species that protect whole ecosystems.
3) The most effective ways to save panda populations aren’t being acted upon in the first place

Side-note: I do think pandas are an obvious place to start when it comes to genetically modifying wildlife, considering they are a Charismatic Megafaunal Herbivore, that normally has twins , but always abandons one offspring in the wild( because bamboo is too low calorie compared to what it’s omnivore ancestors ate to feed both twins) modifying them to only produce one offspring at a time feels like a no-brainer assuming we can get There numbers up still.

Vgvt 21 Oct 2022 1:31 UTC
8 points
1 ∶ 0
on: Growing the US tofu market—a roadmap
I wouldn’t be worried about Chinese Americans being too familiar with rare Chinese Tofu varieties, simply cause China is a large culturally diverse place and most Chinese-Americans are from The south eastern Cantonese speaking regions ,

As an English speaking Vegan on the internet I’ve noticed and increased interest in “ tofus” made with other legumes, like peanuts or black beans, I think there is value in having substitutes available for a common allergen, and wonder If you could market “ black bean tofu” at a Mexican restaurant as something new and trendy and that “fits the restaurant” even If it’s still standard firm tofu.

Vgvt 21 Jun 2022 20:49 UTC
7 points
0 ∶ 0
on: A direct way to reduce the catch of wild fish
-Though it doesn’t apply to the species highlighted , or the other small shoaling species that would probably be most productive, There are some species where we wouldn’t have to just worry about people eating a different species of fish, but also potentially farmed individuals of the same species.
- I was generally agreeing until you compared it to hunting, which showed the major flaw, It’s inaccurate to model fisheries or regulated game populations like normal “wild-animals” It makes more sense to think of them as state owned livestock that the government makes a pretty penny selling,
to illustrate my point here, https://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/WildlifeSpecies/Ring-NeckedPheasant/Documents/PA_Pheasant_Mgmt_Plan__Final.pdf ,

is my states management plan ( 2008-2017)for ring-neck-pheasants, a non native species from east Asia that is known to lower populations of native American wildlife like bobwhite quail and prairie-chickens through competition, nest-parasitism, disease and direct conflict. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_pheasant

-The plan calls for releasing hundreds of thousands of individuals annually, -modifying habitat to encourage pheasant populations -advising landowners on how to encourage pheasant populations -financially support farmers for providing ideal pheasant habitat -establish a hunting license for pheasants ( has been done)
- support pheasant hunting
I chose this species because being nonnative and harming native wildlife like bobwhite, makes it more self evident this isn’t mere “conservation” , state governments make money selling hunting licenses , and so grow populations of “game”, by making habitats they use, suppressing predators, making fertility control illegal, and/or releasing captive bred individuals , and this is at the cost of native wildlife and ecosystems. Buying a hunting license is like buying a cow at a livestock auction, even if you save her, it supports all the wrong things and gives money to the wrong people.

https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/4FSANaX3GvKHnTgbw/35-150-billion-fish-are-raised-in-captivity-to-be-released

And similar situations go on in terms of aquatic-life, with , economically important species being bred in large numbers to release for fishermen to catch,

Maybe I’ve misunderstood but If tradeable catch shares do function like hunting liscences (as a product the government is selling to the consumer) , It seems straightforwardly bad, because raising fish on farms and releasing them seems really bad.

Vgvt 14 Dec 2022 3:20 UTC
6 points
2 ∶ 0
on: Neuron Count-Based Measures May Currently Underweight Suffering in Farmed Fish
*minor nitpick While Carp, Catfish, Tilapia, Salmonids etc are very common “ types” of fish farmed, each of those categories lumps together numerous species, while the most common farmed fish species is the pond loach https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12pA0UxIbRDcfY5g25XZ7na4duhj6411l-1-_3tRH48k/edit only weighs 4 to 5 grams https://www.fisheriesjournal.com/archives/2019/vol7issue4/PartC/7-3-62-705.pdf

Vgvt 6 Apr 2022 12:17 UTC
6 points
0 ∶ 0
on: No Animals Were Harmed
“ no animals were harmed” really means, “ no animals were being actively harmed in the footage that made it into the final cut” Ethical sourcing, retirement, housing, training etc of animal actors isn’t part of the equation,

A peta infographic about the animal cruelty in the Making pf the Hobbit films https://visual.ly/community/Infographics/animals/hobbit-unexpected-cruelty An article on the subject: https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-in-entertainment/animals-used-entertainment-factsheets/animal-actors-command-performances/

If you were to go down this route I would start by strengthening protections for animal actors, and then I think that dead-animals( “ meat”) used as props are more easily lumped in with animal actors , then every animal eaten by an employee during the duration of the film’s production.

Vgvt 9 Dec 2022 5:27 UTC
5 points
0 ∶ 1
on: The case for offsetting meat consumption
ACE has 4 top charities

Wild Animal Initiative → not involved with livestock , irrelevant to discussion

Faunalytics → involved in research and making research more accesible, impact valuable but very hard to measure in the way that makes “ offsetting” work as a concept .

Good Food Institute → plant-based-alternative industry lobbying group, probably useless, considering There is no association between rising plant-based-meat sales and lowered meat sales.

The Humane League->mainly focused on “ improving” livestock welfare ( not decreasing the number of animals farmed) , has been a major force in the “ cage-free” push even-though Industrial-cage-free Egg farms tend to have higher mortality rates ( meaning more farmed animals per Kcal) than conventional farms. almost certainly net negative and should be tossed to the side.

You complain about hypotheticals far removed from reality, and then offer up one. There is no EA recognized organization that you could possibly use to offset the number of animals raised for your animal-product consumption. Donating to an ACE top charity means one of these four, one bad, one useless, one irrelevant, and one to difficult to quantify the impact of. People who claim to be offsetting There meat consumption ( is any one actually doing this???) are not.

Vgvt 19 Dec 2022 15:15 UTC
4 points
2 ∶ 15
on: Working with the Beef Industry for Chicken Welfare
Welp, this is it, this is my FTX , this is the thing that permanently makes me lose all faith In the EA movement. I am deleting my account on here after this message.

I value the work of other groups in the EA community shining a light on exploited animals like fish and invertebrates , that have been largely abandoned by traditional animal rights organizations.

But Every-time you gaze your eyes on “ coventional livestock” It feels like internal sabotage

Wether it’s advocating for changes that Increase Chicken mortality https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mEoaEm9xRuVkX3nWggRPz700RU7_Z_QgRuEtQMWiMbM/edit

Or wanting everyone to stop advocating for animals and being vegan because meat eaters find it annoying https://www.amazon.com/How-Create-Vegan-World-Pragmatic/dp/1590565703/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?adgrpid=55616130466&gclid=Cj0KCQiAtICdBhCLARIsALUBFcHXj_Cq2z0IDy0Hgl82a5MGcaDZkhu9PtV4oc1NbhPRPeui0BhaRBwaAjT2EALw_wcB&hvadid=409977028744&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=9007235&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=10492759388869879236&hvtargid=kwd-335443252748&hydadcr=12157_11118205&keywords=how+to+create+a+vegan+world&qid=1671462334&sr=8-1

Or giving our money to junk food lobby groups that research suggests don’t help animals at all https://gfi.org/

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/public-health-nutrition/article/does-promoting-plantbased-products-in-veganuary-lead-to-increased-sales-and-a-reduction-in-meat-sales-a-natural-experiment-in-a-supermarket-setting/CB44968AAD1E86856D01CA47A7BC884

And now straight up advocating for a world in which animals are still bred and slaughtered as commodities

If I wanted to support groups in bed with the meat industry I would still be giving money to the HSUS

Next time i see the label “Effective Altruism” attached to anything , I’ ll interpret it as the warning colors it is.

Vgvt 9 Sep 2022 19:30 UTC
4 points
0 ∶ 0
on: The Domestication of Zebras
Setting aside the ethics of animal exploitation for a second

Africa already has Sanga cattle, that are resistant to trypanosomiasis and have been used in subsaharan Africa for thousands of years.

What benefit would zebras have over Sanga cattle?

If it’s just speed ( with cattle being stronger and more useful for most manual labor) , does that really increase efficiency in production, or does it just make them more useful for warfare?

Vgvt 23 Jul 2022 8:21 UTC
3 points
0 ∶ 0
on: What are the ethics of eating carnivorous animals?
A tuna isn’t like a lion that’s eating large herbivores , It’s going to go after smaller predators that are going after smaller predators… until we get to copepods and such. Except all those animals would die of something without predators, so the relevant question is about impacts on population sizes of all relevant species.

Lets pretend the number of calories available is constant and all consumers are animals. All of those calories will be eaten by some life form, due to small body size/ fast reproduction of algae, ocean trophic pyramids are inverted compared to terrestrial ones, with more biomass at higher trophic levels. And unlike in terrestrial ecosystems with many large herbivores, ocean megafauna are mainly predators. Any calories consumed by sharks/tuna/marine-mammals etc aren’t being put to use making more small scavengers.

Now There are mamy complications with this simple model

-some of those calories being eaten by the large predators might be used by insentient consumers like bacteria in There absence instead of small scavenging animals

-bony fish often have very small offspring, and total-population-biomass/ adult-size might be a really bad proxy for relative population size of marine species

-through diving deep/ defecating near the surface/ trapping nutrients in There bodies they keep nutrients at the surface , which has two big effects
1. fertilizes surface waters and allows for more production of calories by algae
2. means those calories in There waste are available to the surface ecosystems instead of sinking to the deep, where the animals they would feed are long lived and have slow metabolisms due to the cold water and food scarcity.
Either way its more complicated than hunting big fish to save little fish and probably bad?

Vgvt 19 Mar 2022 16:54 UTC
3 points
0 ∶ 0
on: Estimates of global captive vertebrate numbers
Some numbers I dug up back when this article was new but I didn’t make an account
Capture of Eels outside Europe: the author estimates that between 28-350 million young eels are captured in Europe for export to be raised in Japan for meat. Eels are also caught in Maine, and to a lesser degree in south Carolina, to send to japan( in fact before I read the article knew of the Maine trade but not the European trade), http://www.asmfc.org/files/Meetings/78AnnualMeeting/AmericanEelBoardSupplemental.pdf
9,194 pounds of glass eels( eels in the suitable age range) were legally caught,, but only counts the legal trade. This article ,https://www.nippon.com/en/in-depth/d00467/gangsters-cash-in-on-e
ndangered-eels.html says 13.6 tons worth of eels are caught in japan, and 40% of the capture in Japan is undocumented and possibly illegal, if we extrapolate this 40% figure to the US capture we get 15,323. And ¹⁄₃ pounds, Eels are also brought from taiwan and china, with 80% of young eels coming from China, according to this article:https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Food-Beverage/China-clamps-down-on-baby-eel-trade-in-blow-to-unagi-restaurants. 15 tons of young eels were stocked in the spring of 2019, vs 19.7 tons in the 2015-2016 season, suggesting the trade is declining. using the estimates the author gave,it seems 24,326,915 eels were caught in the USA(assuming Japanese statistics on illegal trade)( for scale comparison, that’s about a little less then the number of buffaloes slaughtered annually) , 47,600,000 eels caught in Japan,(for scale, around the lower estimate for how many ducks and geese killed for foe gra annually) with 52,500,000 caught eels stocked in japan in spring in 2019( about how many birds not otherwise specified by the FAO are slaughtered annually), differences in number of eels caught versus stocked, are likely due to eels dying in transit, or a conversion error somewhere on my part, or inaccurate reporting.
USA Canned Hunting/deer farming/ new world quails: The author makes note of the breeding of chukar partridge and pheasant in the USA as game,( though strangely leaves out the 69,110 grey partridge from this paper he cites https://www.nass.usda.gov/Publications/AgCensus/2017/Full_Report/Volume_1,_Chapter_1_US/usv1.pdf) and the breeding of large animals in south Africa for hunting, but not the breeding of large animals in the US for hunting(,witch is so large it has spawned wild introduced populations of nilgai , aoudad and blackbuck in the American southwest), which occurs mainly in Texas. In This article: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/us/exotic-hunting-texas-ranch.html a Texas State University Professor of biology says 1.3 million animals are being raised for exotic hunting in the US.( about the same number as crocodilians being farmed), It also says there are more blackbuck on ranches then in there native range of India, but this is refuted by the IUCN https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/1681/50181949#population.
However many animals raised on these ranches are deer, I don’t know. the author says 212,449 farmed deer in the US ( around the tentative low estimate for number of working animals in the world), sighting this document
https://www.nass.usda.gov/Publications/AgCensus/2017/Full_Report/Volume_1,_Chapter_1_US/st99_1_0032_0034.pdf I am assuming, considering elk are listed separately( at a farmed population of 31,555), that “deer” here, refers only to white tailed deer and mule deer, and excludes more “exotic species”.This article: https://modernfarmer.com/2014/02/deer-farming-next-adventure-agriculture/ uses the term “cervid industry” and alludes to the farming of red deer, elk, reindeer, white tailed deer, fallow deer, axis deer, and sika deer. I have no idea if red deer would count as deer or elk, considering how closely related and similar they are. Red deer are European, as are fallow deer. Axis deer are from India and sika deer from Japan, meaning( I think?) their numbers may be more likely to be included in the data on canned hunting. Some places also farm mule deer https://www.facebook.com/muledeerfarm. In short this is a mess and I have no idea which species are being grouped under the “deer” “exotic game” label, neither or both. I do think it’s worth mentioning it though. A similar problem exists with quail, the author estimates 400-550 million quail are farmed, but only mentions farming for eggs and meat, with no acknowledgement of the use of quail farmed as game, strangely https://www.nass.usda.gov/Publications/AgCensus/2017/Full_Report/Volume_1,_Chapter_1_US/usv1.pdf, distinguishes between partridge species but not quail species. The quail traditionally kept as livestock is the Japanese quail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_quail#cite_note-two-3, though supposedly japanese/common quail hybrids are bred to restock Europe in the thousands( wikipedia sources behind paywall), while I understand quail farmed for hunting in the US are mostly native species, especially bobwhite, and to a lesser extent others such as Gambel’s and mountain quails https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_quail, https://alifeofheritage.com/farm-living/raising-quail/,.Once again it is unclear how many species are being counted by the original sources. estimates for the number of farmed quail in spain is questionable, as they are based on the amount of quail meat produced, which could come from wild European quail that were hunted.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_quail.
American Bison: Now here is when things get confusing, and it is time for a taxonomy/etymology lesson.If we ignore the saola( a “living fossil” that diverged from the others early on, and resembles the very earliest cattle), Cattle can be divided into a ‘buffalo” branch and a ’not buffalo”branch. The buffalo branch consists of African buffalo, water buffalo, and three small relatives on southeast Asian islands( mountain anoa,lowland anoa, and tamaraw).The “not buffalo” branch has both species of bison as well as all other cattle. American bison are often called buffalo. I don’t believe the FAO statistics on “buffalo” include bison, partially because FAO has no data on “buffalo” slaughter in the US http://www.fao.org/faostat/en/#data/QL . But the USA does keep track of Bison slaughter, with 56,900 bison commercially slaughtered in the USA in 2018.https://downloads.usda.library.cornell.edu/usda-esmis/files/r207tp32d/8336h934w/hq37vx004/lsslan19.pdf. According to https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/2815/123789863, 97% of the global population is captive and managed for private commercial interests( though this may only include mature individuals). There were,in 2016, between 119,314-145,000 (depending on how we count non-breeding animals born that year, animals slaughtered that year, and animals exported) bison living on canadian farms.A total of 11,591 bison were slaughtered that year in Canada https://www.canadianbison.ca/resources/resources/data-and-statistics/slaughter-capacity. Assuming the same ratio of slaughter/population in the US and Canada, the US farmed bison population is between 585,710 and 711,802 individuals. Total US and Canada farmed bison population is between 705,024,and 856,802. I haven’t looked into farmed bison numbers in other countries. The mature free roaming/semi free roaming population American bison population is 11,248-13,123 according to the IUCN. Assuming all estimates are true, and those farmed in the US and Canada are nearly all farmed individuals globally, there is a non-farmed-captive/ wild-juvenile American bison population of between 8,027 and 14,457.
Pig-tailed-macaques used to harvest Coconuts
Globally 62,000,000 tons of coconuts were harvested in 2018. http://www.fao.org/faostat/en/#data/QC according to FAO. An average coconut weighs 680 grams.https://www.reference.com/world-view/much-coconut-weigh-5faa7de1113733e7. 680 grams is about 0.00068 metric tons. The annual coconut harvest is around 91,176,470,600 coconuts, or 249,798,549.6 per day.https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/10/19/448960760/monkeys-pick-coconuts-in-thailand-are-they-abused-or-working-animals (sidenote: NPR, an anthropologist is not a good source on whether these monkeys are being abused or not). A female can pick 600 a day, and a male 1,600, so on average they can pick 1,100 a day. Around 85% of coconuts are harvested in southeast Asia, where this method is supposedly the norm https://allamericanvegan.com/2015/02/19/did-an-abused-monkey-pick-your-coconut/. If 100% of coconuts were harvested in southeast asia this way, then around 193,026 macaques were used to harvest Coconuts. Supposedly 99% of coconuts in Thailand in particular are harvested this way. 885,751 tons of coconuts in 2018 were harvested In Thailand, or 1,302,575,000 coconuts, of which supposedly 1,289,549,250 were harvested by around 3,212 pig tailed macaques.

Vgvt 14 Dec 2022 3:46 UTC
2 points
0 ∶ 0
in reply to: MHR’s comment on: Neuron Count-Based Measures May Currently Underweight Suffering in Farmed Fish
Yes the three top carp* species alone make up 19 billion individuals vs 11 billion pond loach

*I’m treating any large member of the Cyprinidae family as a “carp” ( common names are difficult at the best of the times and even worse for fish) for these purposes

Vgvt 1 Sep 2022 14:30 UTC
2 points
0 ∶ 0
on: Editing wild animals is underexplored in What We Owe the Future
Theirs an estimated 7.7 million animal species, I think practically any sort of mass redesign of the worlds biosphere to be utopian would have to involve lots of animal extinctions unless you are suggesting genetically modifying nearly 8 million species

Vgvt 11 Aug 2022 2:56 UTC
2 points
0 ∶ 0
on: The Economic Benefits of Promoting and Protecting the Rights of LGBTQ+ Communities in Developing Countries
I’ll just like to mention Rainbow Railroad, a Canadian group focused on helping queer people in unsafe circumstances get to safer countries

Vgvt 5 May 2022 2:18 UTC
2 points
0 ∶ 0
on: The Fair Trade Scandal—book review and summary
I don’t know much about this, but isn’t the main draw of Fair-trade( especially for chocolate or coffee) that you aren’t supporting child slavery? I think it’s a major mistake to Only look at the farmers, and not the agricultural-laborers working beneath them.

Vgvt 11 Dec 2022 23:17 UTC
1 point
1 ∶ 1
in reply to: Henry Howard’s comment on: Kurzgesagt’s most recent video promoting the introducing of wild life to other planets is unethical and irresponsible
That would have negative consequences for the people that already exist today and rely on earths biosphere, the same can not be said for these frivolous space colonization ventures

Vgvt 1 Dec 2022 16:59 UTC
1 point
0 ∶ 0
in reply to: Stijn’s comment on: The deathprint of replacing beef by chicken and insect meat
NPP is increasing, meaning There is more food available, and warmer climates means faster metabolisms and shorter lifespans for ectotherms, we should expect Climate change to increase the number of future animals.

Vgvt 15 Nov 2022 3:42 UTC
1 point
0 ∶ 0
on: Growing the US tofu market—a roadmap
https://m.youtube.com/watch Stumbled across a youtube video of a guy making a version of fermented tofu at home from firm tofu. He pickled it and after waiting for it to age, mixed it with olive oil, potato starch, and coconut oil to give it a soft stretchy cheese like texture.

Vgvt 30 Oct 2022 14:44 UTC
1 point
0 ∶ 0
on: Using artificial intelligence (machine vision) to increase the effectiveness of human-wildlife conflict mitigations could benefit WAW
In 2021 the IUCN implemented the “ green list” a companion to its more traditional “ red list” , right now the green list is more a proof of concept with only a few dozen species ( as oppose to the almost 150,000 red list species) , but It ranks animals not on how likely they are to go extinct in the near future, but by how heavily depleted/range-restricted they are from a historical baseline. Expanding recognition of and in turn protections for “least-concern” but heavily depleted species ( such as American and Europeans beavers, cougar, black tailed prairie dogs, wapiti, European water vole( in UK), eurasian harvest mice( UK), European hedgehog(In UK), gray wolves, brown bears, evening grosbeaks , wood thrush, monarch butterfly, European starling( native range) etc) could protect a large number of wild animals.

Vgvt 11 Sep 2022 17:16 UTC
1 point
0 ∶ 4
on: Could it be a (bad) lock-in to replace factory farming with alternative protein?
I think There is an important difference between plant based products and cultured meat for this conversation

A society that stops eating meat will be able to ban meat

A society that replaces animal meat with cultured meat would not be able to ban animal meat, because the animal meat and cultured meat are the same thing so There would be no way for law enforcement to recognize contraband, I can see large numbers of backyard slaughterhouses , hunting/fishing and small scale animal meat production surviving indefinitely in the second situation.