No, EA is the only place in the entire world I have been (and I have been many varied places) where I—a white straight male—am considered diverse, or at least semi-diverse… simply because I come from a typical white background that’s not super wealthy; I’m the first to go to college in my family (and not ivy league); etc. (Or at least, there are “socioeconomic diversity” meetups at EAGs where they list me as diverse for these reasons. So I’m going off their definitions.)
And EA is aimed in many ways at maintaining exclusivity, even while incredible people like Julia make great strides in making it more inclusive. For example, some people in EA think my EA-oriented after-school program is a waste of time because it’s not directed at the highest achievers. And indeed, there are few EA-oriented programs that are not directed at the highest achievers. Even 80,000 hours career advice applies not at all to the average person, but is oriented only to those who are already going to spend 6+ years shelling out money for undergrad and grad school, etc (at least last I checked).
And EA is aimed in many ways at maintaining exclusivity, even while incredible people like Julia make great strides in making it more inclusive. For example, some people in EA think my EA-oriented after-school program is a waste of time because it’s not directed at the highest achievers.
This anecdote seems like very weak evidence for your claim. Claiming EA is ‘aimed in many ways’ at something implies a concerted effort to achieve it, even at the cost of other goals. In contrast, some people saying a program is a waste of time means just that—it’s not producing much value. The whole point of EA is to prioritize—disfavoring donkey sanctuaries doesn’t mean EAs hate donkeys, it just means there are other, better things to focus on.
Even 80,000 hours career advice applies not at all to the average person, but is oriented only to those who are already going to spend 6+ years shelling out money for undergrad and grad school, etc (at least last I checked). [emphasis added]
This seems clearly false to me. To test it, I looked at the very first article in their career guide, one of their flagship products. It is about doing engaging work that helps others, doesn’t have any major downsides, etc. As far as I can see, almost every part of it applied to average people. The income-satisfaction charts they include have x-axis running from $10k to $210k, a range than covers the median income. It is not in any way dependent on your having a postgraduate qualification. And I have no idea where you get ‘6+ years shelling out money’ from—surely most of their advice applies also to autodidacts, people who finish more quickly, people in countries with state-funded universities, people who get scholarships, etc.?
Are you arguing that EA is “above-the-curve” on DEI stuff? Or you agree with me that it is not, but you just think my evidence for the point is lacking?
Are you comparing my public school, after-school program, to a donkey sanctuary? And/or do you believe that aiming to make EA more accessible to the general public, and more diverse, is akin to supporting donkey sanctuaries?
(on the other hand you have a point that my anecdote is not the best… as plenty of people in EA do like my ideas for broadening out EA to the general public… so it’s not like many people hate on me for this, although actually you seem to think this is a waste of time yourself?)
The 80k hours article you are pulling is simply detailing that one can make a difference in general and all the reasons why one should pursue this, generally speaking.- My point was different… my point was that their actual concrete advice from there applies mostly to a specific elite kind of people who want to go to grad school and/or do certain types of studies/activities which about 88+% of people are not going to be into for one reason or another, starting with the fact that only about 12% of people go to grad school in the first place. Yes money is one main factor why many people won’t even think to go grad school but sure that reason doesn’t apply to everyone like you mention.
We can discuss the pros and cons of EA not being diverse. I think there are pros to its focus on the things it does, and I don’t mean to sound like I’m bashing it 100%. But I think it’s pretty clear that EA is not diverse as is, and doesn’t resonate with people outside the general Ivy League world too too much.
I also share these frustrations with career advice from 80,000 Hours and the EA Forum. There was time about 2 years back where my forum activity was a lot of snarky complaints (of questionable insight) about career advice and diversity.
Like you mentioned, the career advice usually leaves a lot to be desired in the concrete details of navigating a lack of mentors, lack of credentials, lack of financial runway, family obligations, etc. I’ve sometimes wondered about writing an article to fill in the gap, but it’s not exactly a “one article” sized hole. Maybe that’s a yearlong project you or I or someone else can work on someday.
As for my comment on “above-the-curve”, I think we’re in agreement but I could have worded this better. I don’t think the community is diverse but the initiatives are much higher quality than I see elsewhere. Usually, these initiatives range from bad to useless. Whereas this list of EA diversity initiatives feels mostly harmless or slightly positive nudges. A few feel like they’ll pay dividends in a few years.
All makes sense Geoffery and glad it’s not just me who thinks about these things, especially on the 80k advice.
I agree that this list that Julia presents is very impressive and way better than what a lot might do, in some contexts. Your point is well taken and your initial comment was good too, I maybe could have read the meaning a little better so maybe it was me that boxed it in.
Thanks so much, these threads I am posting on here, are I think the first time I am having productive back and forths on the forum so that’s kinda cool :)
EA is “above-the-curve” on DEI stuff?
No, EA is the only place in the entire world I have been (and I have been many varied places) where I—a white straight male—am considered diverse, or at least semi-diverse… simply because I come from a typical white background that’s not super wealthy; I’m the first to go to college in my family (and not ivy league); etc. (Or at least, there are “socioeconomic diversity” meetups at EAGs where they list me as diverse for these reasons. So I’m going off their definitions.)
And EA is aimed in many ways at maintaining exclusivity, even while incredible people like Julia make great strides in making it more inclusive. For example, some people in EA think my EA-oriented after-school program is a waste of time because it’s not directed at the highest achievers. And indeed, there are few EA-oriented programs that are not directed at the highest achievers. Even 80,000 hours career advice applies not at all to the average person, but is oriented only to those who are already going to spend 6+ years shelling out money for undergrad and grad school, etc (at least last I checked).
This anecdote seems like very weak evidence for your claim. Claiming EA is ‘aimed in many ways’ at something implies a concerted effort to achieve it, even at the cost of other goals. In contrast, some people saying a program is a waste of time means just that—it’s not producing much value. The whole point of EA is to prioritize—disfavoring donkey sanctuaries doesn’t mean EAs hate donkeys, it just means there are other, better things to focus on.
This seems clearly false to me. To test it, I looked at the very first article in their career guide, one of their flagship products. It is about doing engaging work that helps others, doesn’t have any major downsides, etc. As far as I can see, almost every part of it applied to average people. The income-satisfaction charts they include have x-axis running from $10k to $210k, a range than covers the median income. It is not in any way dependent on your having a postgraduate qualification. And I have no idea where you get ‘6+ years shelling out money’ from—surely most of their advice applies also to autodidacts, people who finish more quickly, people in countries with state-funded universities, people who get scholarships, etc.?
Are you arguing that EA is “above-the-curve” on DEI stuff? Or you agree with me that it is not, but you just think my evidence for the point is lacking?
Are you comparing my public school, after-school program, to a donkey sanctuary? And/or do you believe that aiming to make EA more accessible to the general public, and more diverse, is akin to supporting donkey sanctuaries?
(on the other hand you have a point that my anecdote is not the best… as plenty of people in EA do like my ideas for broadening out EA to the general public… so it’s not like many people hate on me for this, although actually you seem to think this is a waste of time yourself?)
The 80k hours article you are pulling is simply detailing that one can make a difference in general and all the reasons why one should pursue this, generally speaking.- My point was different… my point was that their actual concrete advice from there applies mostly to a specific elite kind of people who want to go to grad school and/or do certain types of studies/activities which about 88+% of people are not going to be into for one reason or another, starting with the fact that only about 12% of people go to grad school in the first place. Yes money is one main factor why many people won’t even think to go grad school but sure that reason doesn’t apply to everyone like you mention.
We can discuss the pros and cons of EA not being diverse. I think there are pros to its focus on the things it does, and I don’t mean to sound like I’m bashing it 100%. But I think it’s pretty clear that EA is not diverse as is, and doesn’t resonate with people outside the general Ivy League world too too much.
I also share these frustrations with career advice from 80,000 Hours and the EA Forum. There was time about 2 years back where my forum activity was a lot of snarky complaints (of questionable insight) about career advice and diversity.
Like you mentioned, the career advice usually leaves a lot to be desired in the concrete details of navigating a lack of mentors, lack of credentials, lack of financial runway, family obligations, etc. I’ve sometimes wondered about writing an article to fill in the gap, but it’s not exactly a “one article” sized hole. Maybe that’s a yearlong project you or I or someone else can work on someday.
As for my comment on “above-the-curve”, I think we’re in agreement but I could have worded this better. I don’t think the community is diverse but the initiatives are much higher quality than I see elsewhere. Usually, these initiatives range from bad to useless. Whereas this list of EA diversity initiatives feels mostly harmless or slightly positive nudges. A few feel like they’ll pay dividends in a few years.
All makes sense Geoffery and glad it’s not just me who thinks about these things, especially on the 80k advice.
I agree that this list that Julia presents is very impressive and way better than what a lot might do, in some contexts. Your point is well taken and your initial comment was good too, I maybe could have read the meaning a little better so maybe it was me that boxed it in.
Thanks so much, these threads I am posting on here, are I think the first time I am having productive back and forths on the forum so that’s kinda cool :)