I would suggest the role of the US toppling Democratically elected people like Patrice Lumumba in Congo and in Iran and Guatemala may have caused at least as much suffering as the Uyghur atrocities.
Its hard to imagine anything worse than the “giant leap forward” though.
Agreed on impacts—but I think intention matters when considering what the past implies about the future, and as I said in another reply, on that basis I will claim the great leap forward isn’t a reasonable basis to predict future abuse or tragedy.
I disagree. I think that if a government causes great harm by accident or great harm intentionally, either is evidence that it will cause great harm by accident or intentionally in future respectively and I just care about the great harm part
I certainly agree it’s some marginal evidence of propensity, and that the outcome, not the intent, is what matters—but don’t you think that mistakes become less frequent with greater understanding and capacity?
If you are willing to bring up historical examples, than comparing like-for-like nothing the US does domestically is of comparable badness to the Great Leap Forward except maybe slavery (and that was a 1800s rather than a 1900s phenomenon). The US has also done other things that are quite bad over the last 100 years, eg. the Japanese internment camps, but they’re not in the same order of magnitude.
I think (tentatively) that making (even giant and insanely consequential) mistakes with positive intentions, like the great leap forward, is in a meaningful sense far less bad than mistakes that are more obviously aimed at cynical self benefit at the expense of others, like, say, most of US foreign policy in South America, or post-civil-war policy related to segregation.
Hi, I’m Indonesian, and I have to disagree. While China has serious human rights abuses, the U.S. has also committed grave crimes, particularly through its global interventions.
For example, in 1965, the U.S.—along with the World Bank under Robert McNamara—helped install a dictatorial regime in Indonesia, supporting General Suharto, who went on to become the world’s most corrupt leader. In the process, at least 500,000 to 1 million people were massacred, falsely accused of being communists. This brutal anti-communist purge, known as the Jakarta Method, was later replicated in multiple countries, including Chile, Argentina, and Brazil, with devastating consequences.
Given the U.S.’s direct role in facilitating mass killings, coups, and authoritarian regimes worldwide, I’d argue that its crimes against global humanity might be worse than China’s.
Book Reference:
- Bevins, Vincent (2020). The Jakarta Method: Washington’s Anticommunist Crusade and the Mass Murder Program that Shaped Our World
- Robinson, Geoffrey B. (2018). The Killing Season: A History of the Indonesian Massacres, 1965-66
Human rights abuses seem much worse in China—this alone is basically sufficient for me
Is what the US has done or supported in Iraq, Syria, Israel and elsewhere materially or obviously less bad?
Do you feel the same way if AGI is created by the Trump administration, which has openly opposed a variety of human right?
(I’m not entirely disagreeing directionally, I’m hoping to ask honestly to understand your views, not attack them.)
To give one example, I don’t see anything in the US comparable to how the Chinese government treats Uyghurs.
I would suggest the role of the US toppling Democratically elected people like Patrice Lumumba in Congo and in Iran and Guatemala may have caused at least as much suffering as the Uyghur atrocities.
Its hard to imagine anything worse than the “giant leap forward” though.
Agreed on impacts—but I think intention matters when considering what the past implies about the future, and as I said in another reply, on that basis I will claim the great leap forward isn’t a reasonable basis to predict future abuse or tragedy.
I disagree. I think that if a government causes great harm by accident or great harm intentionally, either is evidence that it will cause great harm by accident or intentionally in future respectively and I just care about the great harm part
I certainly agree it’s some marginal evidence of propensity, and that the outcome, not the intent, is what matters—but don’t you think that mistakes become less frequent with greater understanding and capacity?
Historically, I’d disagree. And I’m not confident the change away from that is persisting.
If you are willing to bring up historical examples, than comparing like-for-like nothing the US does domestically is of comparable badness to the Great Leap Forward except maybe slavery (and that was a 1800s rather than a 1900s phenomenon). The US has also done other things that are quite bad over the last 100 years, eg. the Japanese internment camps, but they’re not in the same order of magnitude.
I think (tentatively) that making (even giant and insanely consequential) mistakes with positive intentions, like the great leap forward, is in a meaningful sense far less bad than mistakes that are more obviously aimed at cynical self benefit at the expense of others, like, say, most of US foreign policy in South America, or post-civil-war policy related to segregation.
Factory farming?
Good point! Though my impression is that animal welfare is worse in China than the US, though I’m pretty unfamiliar with this topic.
Hi, I’m Indonesian, and I have to disagree. While China has serious human rights abuses, the U.S. has also committed grave crimes, particularly through its global interventions.
For example, in 1965, the U.S.—along with the World Bank under Robert McNamara—helped install a dictatorial regime in Indonesia, supporting General Suharto, who went on to become the world’s most corrupt leader. In the process, at least 500,000 to 1 million people were massacred, falsely accused of being communists. This brutal anti-communist purge, known as the Jakarta Method, was later replicated in multiple countries, including Chile, Argentina, and Brazil, with devastating consequences.
Given the U.S.’s direct role in facilitating mass killings, coups, and authoritarian regimes worldwide, I’d argue that its crimes against global humanity might be worse than China’s.
Book Reference:
- Bevins, Vincent (2020). The Jakarta Method: Washington’s Anticommunist Crusade and the Mass Murder Program that Shaped Our World
- Robinson, Geoffrey B. (2018). The Killing Season: A History of the Indonesian Massacres, 1965-66