As of now, this comment has 13 disagree votes. I’d be interested to hear the reasoning behind those. Is this a disagreement with my claim that “It is very basic professionalism to not hit on, flirt with, or ask out colleagues,” or is this a disagreeing with some other aspect of my comment?
EDIT: I made my comment in the context of a small organization, and I now see that my previous comment is over-reaching. The context of flirting with a colleague at a company of 10,000 and and multiple offices/locations is of course very different that flirting with a colleague at a non-profit of only a few dozen people. I still claim that people should not be flirting or hitting on colleagues within a small team, where you see the same people at work every day. But I do understand that the context is different if there is a person that is employed by the same employer and you won’t have any projects with that person, or you won’t interact with that person as a part of your normal work. I also suspect that I simply have different norms/standards regarding professionalism than many of the commenters here.
I disagree-voted with your claim. I wouldn’t say it’s actively professional, but I don’t think it’s inherently unprofessional either to flirt with, hit on, and ask out a colleague if neither of you is in each other’s reporting chain, and your company has no policy against it. My sense is that this is pretty accepted in most of the large organizations that I know of as a matter of course and not considered bad behavior, nor should it be. Of course, given that you work together ongoingly, it’s probably prudent to be especially receptive to any signs that it’s making them uncomfortable and stop right away if so.
I also thought the tone of your comment was snide and unpleasant, and also just overconfident: most large companies I know don’t have a policy against their employees asking each other out (e.g. here’s an old discussion of Google and Facebook’s policies), so I don’t know why you would think would or consider it so obvious.
This is completely separate from the matter Frances is discussing about having a document discussing her rape shared among her colleagues, which sounds exceedingly distressing, and I have a hard time thinking of a reasonable justification for.
I think it’s obviously inappropriate to ask someone out at a work retreat (and obviously inappropriate for people to date people in their chain of command, etc.). But I don’t think that colleagues asking each other out is always unprofessional, if they know each other outside of work and if a “no” is respected. For a reducto ad absurdam, Google employees don’t have to avoid dating all 180,000 other Google employees. Clearly, in a smaller organization, asking people out is more fraught and often wise to avoid. But I don’t think it’s wrong 100% of the time. I have dated work colleagues before without a problem.
(TBC I don’t mean to defend Riley’s behavior here, which clearly crosses a line.)
Another problematic element of Riley’s behavior here is that he asked multiple times.
Conditional on asking out a colleague being otherwise acceptable, I submit that it is acceptable exactly once. The best potential argument against a broadly applicable no-asking norm—that it constitutes employer interference in the highly personal decisions of two people who may both want to pursue something—is significantly attenuated when Person B is already aware of Person A’s interest and can follow up if they change their mind.
An opt-in solution might be preferable here—such as a norm or policy against asking out colleagues with whom you have more-than-superficial contact at work [1] unless they have (e.g.) opted in on a third-party website (either generally or specifically with respect to you).
I see that you’ve now made an edit noting that your comment was specifically about small organizations. While I agree that the concerns about asking out colleagues and flirting with them are larger in a smaller organization than in a huge organization, I still definitely don’t think it’s obvious that such behavior should be disallowed (in fact, I believe it should generally be allowed, as long as people aren’t in one another’s reporting lines).
For what it’s worth I’m also surprised by the reaction. Within government departments in NZ (where I worked before) this is not allowed. Of course it still happens but it seems good to me for the organization to discourage it.
As of now, this comment has 13 disagree votes. I’d be interested to hear the reasoning behind those. Is this a disagreement with my claim that “It is very basic professionalism to not hit on, flirt with, or ask out colleagues,” or is this a disagreeing with some other aspect of my comment?
EDIT: I made my comment in the context of a small organization, and I now see that my previous comment is over-reaching. The context of flirting with a colleague at a company of 10,000 and and multiple offices/locations is of course very different that flirting with a colleague at a non-profit of only a few dozen people. I still claim that people should not be flirting or hitting on colleagues within a small team, where you see the same people at work every day. But I do understand that the context is different if there is a person that is employed by the same employer and you won’t have any projects with that person, or you won’t interact with that person as a part of your normal work. I also suspect that I simply have different norms/standards regarding professionalism than many of the commenters here.
I disagree-voted with your claim. I wouldn’t say it’s actively professional, but I don’t think it’s inherently unprofessional either to flirt with, hit on, and ask out a colleague if neither of you is in each other’s reporting chain, and your company has no policy against it. My sense is that this is pretty accepted in most of the large organizations that I know of as a matter of course and not considered bad behavior, nor should it be. Of course, given that you work together ongoingly, it’s probably prudent to be especially receptive to any signs that it’s making them uncomfortable and stop right away if so.
I also thought the tone of your comment was snide and unpleasant, and also just overconfident: most large companies I know don’t have a policy against their employees asking each other out (e.g. here’s an old discussion of Google and Facebook’s policies), so I don’t know why you would think would or consider it so obvious.
This is completely separate from the matter Frances is discussing about having a document discussing her rape shared among her colleagues, which sounds exceedingly distressing, and I have a hard time thinking of a reasonable justification for.
I think it’s obviously inappropriate to ask someone out at a work retreat (and obviously inappropriate for people to date people in their chain of command, etc.). But I don’t think that colleagues asking each other out is always unprofessional, if they know each other outside of work and if a “no” is respected. For a reducto ad absurdam, Google employees don’t have to avoid dating all 180,000 other Google employees. Clearly, in a smaller organization, asking people out is more fraught and often wise to avoid. But I don’t think it’s wrong 100% of the time. I have dated work colleagues before without a problem.
(TBC I don’t mean to defend Riley’s behavior here, which clearly crosses a line.)
Another problematic element of Riley’s behavior here is that he asked multiple times.
Conditional on asking out a colleague being otherwise acceptable, I submit that it is acceptable exactly once. The best potential argument against a broadly applicable no-asking norm—that it constitutes employer interference in the highly personal decisions of two people who may both want to pursue something—is significantly attenuated when Person B is already aware of Person A’s interest and can follow up if they change their mind.
An opt-in solution might be preferable here—such as a norm or policy against asking out colleagues with whom you have more-than-superficial contact at work [1] unless they have (e.g.) opted in on a third-party website (either generally or specifically with respect to you).
I mean to exclude cases like: there are 1,000 employees and you may see this person across the cafeteria once or twice a month.
I see that you’ve now made an edit noting that your comment was specifically about small organizations. While I agree that the concerns about asking out colleagues and flirting with them are larger in a smaller organization than in a huge organization, I still definitely don’t think it’s obvious that such behavior should be disallowed (in fact, I believe it should generally be allowed, as long as people aren’t in one another’s reporting lines).
Quick searching indicates that it is generally allowed in small orgs. Also, in general, ~10% of people meet their spouse at work.
For what it’s worth I’m also surprised by the reaction. Within government departments in NZ (where I worked before) this is not allowed. Of course it still happens but it seems good to me for the organization to discourage it.
*Edit for spelling