First of all, kudos on writing an op-ed! I think it’s a good thing to do, and I think earning to give is a much better path than what most Ivy League grads wind up doing, so if you persuade a few people, that’s good.
My basic problem with the argument you make here (and with earning to give in general) is that some bad things tend to go along with “selling out” (as you put it), rendering it difficult to maintain one’s initial commitment to earning to give. Some worries I have about college students deciding to do this:
Erosion of values. When your social group becomes full of Meta employees (vs. idealistic college students), you find a partner (who may or may not be EA), you have kids, and so on, your values shift, and it becomes easier to justify not donating. I have seen a lot of people become gradually less motivated to do good between the ages of 20 and 30, but while having committed to a career path in, eg, global health makes it harder for this value shift to be accompanied by a shift in the social value of one’s work (since most global health jobs are somewhat socially valuable), having committed to a career path in earning to give presents no such barriers.
Relatedly, lifestyle creep occurs. As you get richer (and befriend your colleagues at Meta and so on), people start inviting you to expensive birthday dinners and on nice trips and stuff. And so your ability to maintain a relatively more frugal lifestyle can be compromised by desire/pressure to buy nice stuff.
In other words, I think it’s harder to maintain your EA values when you’re earning to give vs. working at, eg, an NGO. These challenges are then further compounded by:
(3) Selection bias. I suspect that the group of EA-interested people who are drawn to earning to give in the first place are more interested in having a bougie lifestyle (etc) than the average EA who isn’t drawn to earning to give. And, correspondingly, I think they’re more likely to be affected by (1) and (2).
Although I agree that all of these are challenges, I don’t really believe they’re enough to undermine the basic case. It’s not unusual in high-paying industries for some people to make several times as much as their colleagues. So there’s potentially lots of room to have higher consumption than you would working at a nonprofit while also giving away more than half your salary.
Empirically my impression is also that people who went into earning to give early tended to stay giving later in their careers 10+ years later; although that’s anecdotal rather than data-driven.
Do you know if there’s empirical data on this? Like Owen, I think these are relatively minor risks.
Unsurprisingly, the people I know who donate the most are the ones who earn the most (although they probably don’t give particularly effectively), and I know people with experience in non-profits who were disillusioned and moved back to “normal” jobs. I could also imagine NGO workers might have strong incentives to work for a “White Landcruiser” NGO and be less focused on actually helping others. Basically, I’m not sure if the value drift is actually that much higher for an earn-to-giver compared to a worker at a median NGO. (Because it’s high in both cases and because most NGOs are not particularly impact-driven)
I’m also not sure how much of an issue lifestyle creep is in practice. If you earn twice as much, and spend twice as much on yourself because of lifestyle creep, you’re still donating twice as much as before. And empirically, we see higher-income people give higher percentages of their incomes.
Also, there are very significant “career capital” benefits of working in a high-paying job before moving into a direct role, some of which are highlighted in this recent post. The founders of the Against Malaria Foundation had lots of for-profit experience that I think probably helped them save so many lives when they switched to non-profit work. (Incidentally, it seems that Rob Mather has an MBA from Harvard itself)
I’m pretty pro-ETG. But I do agree with these points Lilly.
I wonder if showcasing and building on the fun of giving effectively would be helpful? I actually have very little experince to draw on here myself—but it seems to me that doling out one’s wealth actually can pretty be enjoyable, if we attempt to make it so?
There’s the basic fuzzies—but also the impression of building something. Some people collect old cars or stock tropical aquariums. In so far as value erosion is typified by declining interest when one leaves fertile EA social circles in college (I think ideology and lifestyle changes as causality are a little bit over empathized comparatively), keeping up those networks might help. Giving as a fun hobby you do with your friends. Just like other hobbies, but it’s donation data spreadsheets and counterfactual impact that you collect instead of rare coins or vintage sneakers.
Relatedly—I’ve heard of parties where people came together to compile donations on giving days? Never been to one, but these seem great.
Especially for people without direct involvement like ETG people and recent grads—we can’t just assume they’ll stay in EA because “it’s true/right”, some people need that social push. EAGs are good, but are simply too big, too costly and too formal.
First of all, kudos on writing an op-ed! I think it’s a good thing to do, and I think earning to give is a much better path than what most Ivy League grads wind up doing, so if you persuade a few people, that’s good.
My basic problem with the argument you make here (and with earning to give in general) is that some bad things tend to go along with “selling out” (as you put it), rendering it difficult to maintain one’s initial commitment to earning to give. Some worries I have about college students deciding to do this:
Erosion of values. When your social group becomes full of Meta employees (vs. idealistic college students), you find a partner (who may or may not be EA), you have kids, and so on, your values shift, and it becomes easier to justify not donating. I have seen a lot of people become gradually less motivated to do good between the ages of 20 and 30, but while having committed to a career path in, eg, global health makes it harder for this value shift to be accompanied by a shift in the social value of one’s work (since most global health jobs are somewhat socially valuable), having committed to a career path in earning to give presents no such barriers.
Relatedly, lifestyle creep occurs. As you get richer (and befriend your colleagues at Meta and so on), people start inviting you to expensive birthday dinners and on nice trips and stuff. And so your ability to maintain a relatively more frugal lifestyle can be compromised by desire/pressure to buy nice stuff.
In other words, I think it’s harder to maintain your EA values when you’re earning to give vs. working at, eg, an NGO. These challenges are then further compounded by:
(3) Selection bias. I suspect that the group of EA-interested people who are drawn to earning to give in the first place are more interested in having a bougie lifestyle (etc) than the average EA who isn’t drawn to earning to give. And, correspondingly, I think they’re more likely to be affected by (1) and (2).
Although I agree that all of these are challenges, I don’t really believe they’re enough to undermine the basic case. It’s not unusual in high-paying industries for some people to make several times as much as their colleagues. So there’s potentially lots of room to have higher consumption than you would working at a nonprofit while also giving away more than half your salary.
Empirically my impression is also that people who went into earning to give early tended to stay giving later in their careers 10+ years later; although that’s anecdotal rather than data-driven.
Do you know if there’s empirical data on this? Like Owen, I think these are relatively minor risks.
Unsurprisingly, the people I know who donate the most are the ones who earn the most (although they probably don’t give particularly effectively), and I know people with experience in non-profits who were disillusioned and moved back to “normal” jobs.
I could also imagine NGO workers might have strong incentives to work for a “White Landcruiser” NGO and be less focused on actually helping others. Basically, I’m not sure if the value drift is actually that much higher for an earn-to-giver compared to a worker at a median NGO. (Because it’s high in both cases and because most NGOs are not particularly impact-driven)
I’m also not sure how much of an issue lifestyle creep is in practice. If you earn twice as much, and spend twice as much on yourself because of lifestyle creep, you’re still donating twice as much as before. And empirically, we see higher-income people give higher percentages of their incomes.
Also, there are very significant “career capital” benefits of working in a high-paying job before moving into a direct role, some of which are highlighted in this recent post. The founders of the Against Malaria Foundation had lots of for-profit experience that I think probably helped them save so many lives when they switched to non-profit work. (Incidentally, it seems that Rob Mather has an MBA from Harvard itself)
That’s all much better analyzed in the new 80000hours page on Earning to Give though, which makes many more points for and against
I’m pretty pro-ETG. But I do agree with these points Lilly.
I wonder if showcasing and building on the fun of giving effectively would be helpful? I actually have very little experince to draw on here myself—but it seems to me that doling out one’s wealth actually can pretty be enjoyable, if we attempt to make it so?
There’s the basic fuzzies—but also the impression of building something. Some people collect old cars or stock tropical aquariums. In so far as value erosion is typified by declining interest when one leaves fertile EA social circles in college (I think ideology and lifestyle changes as causality are a little bit over empathized comparatively), keeping up those networks might help. Giving as a fun hobby you do with your friends. Just like other hobbies, but it’s donation data spreadsheets and counterfactual impact that you collect instead of rare coins or vintage sneakers.
Relatedly—I’ve heard of parties where people came together to compile donations on giving days? Never been to one, but these seem great.
There’s a good (but somewhat muddled) forum post on this: What to do with people? https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/oNY76m8DDWFiLo7nH/what-to-do-with-people
Especially for people without direct involvement like ETG people and recent grads—we can’t just assume they’ll stay in EA because “it’s true/right”, some people need that social push. EAGs are good, but are simply too big, too costly and too formal.