I was sad to read your initial post and recognize how disappointed you are about not getting to come to this EAG. And I see you’ve put a lot of work into this post and your application. I’m sorry that the result wasn’t what you were hoping for.
After our call (I’m happy to disclose that I am “X”), I was under the impression that you understood our decision, and I was happy to hear that you started getting involved with the in-person community after we spoke.
As I mentioned to you, I recommend that you apply to an EAGx event, which might be a better fit for you at this stage.
It’s our policy to not discuss the specifics of people’s applications with other people besides them. I don’t think it would be appropriate for me to give more detail about why you were rejected publicly, so it is hard to really reply to the substance of this post, and share the other side of this story.
I hope that you continue to find ways to get involved, deepen your EA thinking, and make contributions to EA cause areas. I’m sorry that this has been a disappointing experience for you. At this point, given our limited capacity, and the time we’ve spent engaging on calls, email, and Facebook, I’m going to focus on building up our team in order to run more EAG and EAGx events.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the process more generally. My team is focused on EAG right now, but we plan to reflect on any structural changes after the event.
It’s our policy to not discuss the specifics of people’s applications with other people besides them. I don’t think it would be appropriate for me to give more detail about why you were rejected publicly, so it is hard to really reply to the substance of this post, and share the other side of this story.
This of course is correct as a default policy. But if Constance explicitly said she wants to have this conversation more publicly, would you comment publicly? Or could you comment in a private message to her, and endorse her sharing the message if she chose to?
I did explain to Constance why she was initially rejected as one of the things we discussed on an hour-long call. We also discussed additional information she was considering including, and I told her I thought she was a better fit for EAGx (she said she was not interested). It can be challenging to give a lot of guidance on how to change a specific application, especially in cases where the goal is to “get in”. I worry about providing information that will allow candidates to game the system.
I don’t think this post reflects what I told Constance, perhaps because she disagrees with us. So, I want to stick to the policy for now.
Hi Amy,
I think it’s hard to justify a policy of never discussing someone’s application publicly even when they agree to it and it’s in the public interest. This is completely different from protecting people’s privacy.
I worry about providing information that will allow candidates to game the system.
This seems to me to be a recurring theme regarding CEA procedures. I encountered a very similar approach from another CEA staff member regarding a completely different, high profile topic that was discussed on the forum. (This was in a private message, so I won’t share it at the moment).
And it’s a valid thing to worry about—but it also means trading away accountability. If CEA can’t be transparent, how can community members evaluate its impact or feel comfortable relying on support/funding/events that CEA makes available? In this tradeoff, it personally seems to me that CEA is way too far on the opaque side.
Hi Amy, I think it’s hard to justify a policy of never discussing someone’s application publicly even when they agree to it and it’s in the public interest. This is completely different from protecting people’s privacy.
If you read Amy’s reply carefully, it sounds like she told Constance some of the reasons for rejection in private and then Constance didn’t summarize those reasons (accurately, or at all?) in her post. If so, it’s understandable why Amy isn’t sure whether Constance would be okay having them shared (because if she was okay, she’d have already shared them?). See this part of Amy’s reply:
I did explain to Constance why she was initially rejected as one of the things we discussed on an hour-long call. [...] I don’t think this post reflects what I told Constance, perhaps because she disagrees with us. So, I want to stick to the policy for now.
FWIW, based on everything Constance writes, I think she seems like a good fit for EAG to me and, more importantly, can be extremely proud of her altruism and accomplishments (and doesn’t need validation from other EAs for that).
I’m just saying that on the particular topic of sharing reasons for the initial rejections, it seems like Amy gave an argument that’s more specific than “we never discuss reasons, ever, not even when the person herself is okay with public discussion.” And you seem to have missed that in your reply or assumed an uncharitable interpretation.
But if Constance explicitly said she wants to have this conversation more publicly, would you comment publicly? Or could you comment in a private message to her, and endorse her sharing the message if she chose to?
Strong agree with all of this. ‘Gaming the system’ feels like weaksauce—it’s not like there’s an algorithm evaluators have to agree to in advance, so if CEA feel someone’s responded to the letter but not spirit of their feedback, they can just reject and say that in the rejection.
I’m still trying to figure out how to best use the comments on this forum, but I did make a reply with a clarification on what you said about me not being interested in EAGx. I just want to comment it again here to make sure that it is seen.
“I also want to mention that I am actually open to going to EAx conferences and was just talking to Dion today about my desire to go to EAxSingapore next year. I think I might have said I wasn’t able to go to EAGxVirtual because it is the same weekend as the AVA Summit, which I am a speaker for. It might also have been that I didn’t have a desire to travel so far for a conference at that time and all the EAx conferences that were listed on the events page would have required me to fly since I’m in the US on the east coast. EAxBoston had already passed at that point so the only conference left on the list that would have been readily accessible to me in terms of location was EAG DC. This might have been construed as a lack of interest in attending EAx events in general, but I assure you this is not the case. I do not have an exact memory of what was said, but hopefully, this provides some clarity.”
I appreciate you taking the time to comment. I know you must be really busy with running EAG DC AND taking care of your child. I think it is fair to say from our conversation, I came to understand that there is a distinct reason that could be pointed to for my rejection from EAG. However, I lack the institutional trust to believe this is the only reason or that it is a good reason to support the goal of EAG “to make the world a better place.” I have updated my closing thoughts to reflect this better.
I also want to mention that I am actually open to going to EAx conferences and was just talking to Dion today about my desire to go to EAxSingapore next year. I think I might have said I wasn’t able to go to EAGxVirtual because it is the same weekend as the AVA Summit, which I am a speaker for. It might also have been that I didn’t have a desire to travel so far for a conference at that time and all the EAx conferences that were listed on the events page would have required me to fly since I’m in the US on the east coast. EAxBoston had already passed at that point so the only conference left on the list that would have been readily accessible to me in terms of location was EAG DC. This might have been construed as a lack of interest in attending EAx events in general, but I assure you this is not the case. I do not have an exact memory of what was said, but hopefully, this provides some clarity.
I hope the event goes smoothly and I would be happy to give my input on any discussion around structural changes for the process going for future events!
What was this distinct reason? If this was mentioned in the post, I didn’t see it.
If it wasn’t mentioned in the post, it feels disingenuous of you to not mention it and give the impression that you were left in the dark and had to come up with your own list of hypotheses. It’s quite difficult for a third party to come to any conclusions without this piece of information.
This comment feels unnecessarily combative, even though I agree with the practical point that without this piece of information, 3rd party observers can’t really get an accurate picture of the situation. So I agreed with but downvoted the comment.
Hi Constance,
I was sad to read your initial post and recognize how disappointed you are about not getting to come to this EAG. And I see you’ve put a lot of work into this post and your application. I’m sorry that the result wasn’t what you were hoping for.
After our call (I’m happy to disclose that I am “X”), I was under the impression that you understood our decision, and I was happy to hear that you started getting involved with the in-person community after we spoke.
As I mentioned to you, I recommend that you apply to an EAGx event, which might be a better fit for you at this stage.
It’s our policy to not discuss the specifics of people’s applications with other people besides them. I don’t think it would be appropriate for me to give more detail about why you were rejected publicly, so it is hard to really reply to the substance of this post, and share the other side of this story.
I hope that you continue to find ways to get involved, deepen your EA thinking, and make contributions to EA cause areas. I’m sorry that this has been a disappointing experience for you. At this point, given our limited capacity, and the time we’ve spent engaging on calls, email, and Facebook, I’m going to focus on building up our team in order to run more EAG and EAGx events.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the process more generally. My team is focused on EAG right now, but we plan to reflect on any structural changes after the event.
This of course is correct as a default policy. But if Constance explicitly said she wants to have this conversation more publicly, would you comment publicly? Or could you comment in a private message to her, and endorse her sharing the message if she chose to?
(Good luck with EAG DC in the meantime.)
Thanks for the suggestion, Zach!
I did explain to Constance why she was initially rejected as one of the things we discussed on an hour-long call. We also discussed additional information she was considering including, and I told her I thought she was a better fit for EAGx (she said she was not interested). It can be challenging to give a lot of guidance on how to change a specific application, especially in cases where the goal is to “get in”. I worry about providing information that will allow candidates to game the system.
I don’t think this post reflects what I told Constance, perhaps because she disagrees with us. So, I want to stick to the policy for now.
Hi Amy, I think it’s hard to justify a policy of never discussing someone’s application publicly even when they agree to it and it’s in the public interest. This is completely different from protecting people’s privacy.
This seems to me to be a recurring theme regarding CEA procedures. I encountered a very similar approach from another CEA staff member regarding a completely different, high profile topic that was discussed on the forum. (This was in a private message, so I won’t share it at the moment).
And it’s a valid thing to worry about—but it also means trading away accountability. If CEA can’t be transparent, how can community members evaluate its impact or feel comfortable relying on support/funding/events that CEA makes available? In this tradeoff, it personally seems to me that CEA is way too far on the opaque side.
If you read Amy’s reply carefully, it sounds like she told Constance some of the reasons for rejection in private and then Constance didn’t summarize those reasons (accurately, or at all?) in her post. If so, it’s understandable why Amy isn’t sure whether Constance would be okay having them shared (because if she was okay, she’d have already shared them?). See this part of Amy’s reply:
FWIW, based on everything Constance writes, I think she seems like a good fit for EAG to me and, more importantly, can be extremely proud of her altruism and accomplishments (and doesn’t need validation from other EAs for that).
I’m just saying that on the particular topic of sharing reasons for the initial rejections, it seems like Amy gave an argument that’s more specific than “we never discuss reasons, ever, not even when the person herself is okay with public discussion.” And you seem to have missed that in your reply or assumed an uncharitable interpretation.
Amy’s comment was in response to Zach asking:
And I was refering to that hypothetical.
Strong agree with all of this. ‘Gaming the system’ feels like weaksauce—it’s not like there’s an algorithm evaluators have to agree to in advance, so if CEA feel someone’s responded to the letter but not spirit of their feedback, they can just reject and say that in the rejection.
I strongly disagree, [edit: deleted a sentence]. Happy to talk about this via DM, will send you a DM with my thoughts.
edit: DM sent
Please do, I’d be interested to hear your take :)
Hi Amy,
I’m still trying to figure out how to best use the comments on this forum, but I did make a reply with a clarification on what you said about me not being interested in EAGx. I just want to comment it again here to make sure that it is seen.
“I also want to mention that I am actually open to going to EAx conferences and was just talking to Dion today about my desire to go to EAxSingapore next year. I think I might have said I wasn’t able to go to EAGxVirtual because it is the same weekend as the AVA Summit, which I am a speaker for. It might also have been that I didn’t have a desire to travel so far for a conference at that time and all the EAx conferences that were listed on the events page would have required me to fly since I’m in the US on the east coast. EAxBoston had already passed at that point so the only conference left on the list that would have been readily accessible to me in terms of location was EAG DC. This might have been construed as a lack of interest in attending EAx events in general, but I assure you this is not the case. I do not have an exact memory of what was said, but hopefully, this provides some clarity.”
Understandably not comfortable sharing why Constance was rejected yet seemingly not at all uncomfortable with calling her a liar anyway.
Hi Amy,
I appreciate you taking the time to comment. I know you must be really busy with running EAG DC AND taking care of your child. I think it is fair to say from our conversation, I came to understand that there is a distinct reason that could be pointed to for my rejection from EAG. However, I lack the institutional trust to believe this is the only reason or that it is a good reason to support the goal of EAG “to make the world a better place.” I have updated my closing thoughts to reflect this better.
I also want to mention that I am actually open to going to EAx conferences and was just talking to Dion today about my desire to go to EAxSingapore next year. I think I might have said I wasn’t able to go to EAGxVirtual because it is the same weekend as the AVA Summit, which I am a speaker for. It might also have been that I didn’t have a desire to travel so far for a conference at that time and all the EAx conferences that were listed on the events page would have required me to fly since I’m in the US on the east coast. EAxBoston had already passed at that point so the only conference left on the list that would have been readily accessible to me in terms of location was EAG DC. This might have been construed as a lack of interest in attending EAx events in general, but I assure you this is not the case. I do not have an exact memory of what was said, but hopefully, this provides some clarity.
I hope the event goes smoothly and I would be happy to give my input on any discussion around structural changes for the process going for future events!
What was this distinct reason? If this was mentioned in the post, I didn’t see it.
If it wasn’t mentioned in the post, it feels disingenuous of you to not mention it and give the impression that you were left in the dark and had to come up with your own list of hypotheses. It’s quite difficult for a third party to come to any conclusions without this piece of information.
This comment feels unnecessarily combative, even though I agree with the practical point that without this piece of information, 3rd party observers can’t really get an accurate picture of the situation. So I agreed with but downvoted the comment.
I’ve edited it slightly to work on this, though it is not easy to make this point without appearing slightly callous, I think.