But I’m a polyamorous EA, and I’m frustrated that I’m now associated with predatory polyamorous rationalists too. Their comment didn’t make a claim that the association was right to make, or even that that cohort even exists, just that that association is happening.
I think the line is a bit better if you replace rationalists with pseudo-rationalists and tech-bros though.
[Edit: I think using the terms “bigoted language” or “appears bigoted” would have been better choices than “is bigoted”. I think you want to be very careful to avoid misunderstandings that you are calling the person bigoted. I realize that quoting the phrase implied that bigoted is referencing the language (not necessarily the person), but if you think someone is using imprecise language, that should make you update that your conversation partner is more likely to misunderstand your own language. Just as you want someone to speak extra-carefully about sexual predators, we can all speak extra-carefully about bigotry etc by throwing in some more qualifiers]
“I’m now associated with predatory polyamorous rationalists.” doesn’t explicitly assert that all poly people are predatory, but it does read to me similar to “I’m now associated with predatory gay rationalists.” The implication is that it’s gross to be associated with poly people, just as it’s gross to be associated with predators. (“This is not what I signed up for. ”) And the implication is that polyamory and predatory behavior are a sort of package deal.
Compare, for example, “I’m now associated with greedy Jewish EAs” or “I’m now associated with smelly autistic gamers”. Are these explicitly asserting that all Jews are greedy, or that all autistic people are smelly? No, but I get the message loud and clear. OP is not being subtle here regarding what they think of polyamorous people.
Yeah I guess that’s probably the normal assumption, and likely what was meant. To me I’d think of the sentence for a gay person as more like “I’m now associated with Jeffrey Dahmer” or “I’m now associated with groomers”. Like that could totally be said in a gay space, and the sentence doesn’t require qualifiers of “not all gay people”, by virtue of being said in a gay-friendly space.
But yeah I guess this case doesn’t hold if someone who isn’t poly says it. And the majority of EAs are monogamous, likely OP too.
This thread is helping me realize that I’m still assuming that EAs aren’t judging poly people here, and that the EA Forum is still a safe space for poly people. I’ll keep this potential blindspot in my mind but keep giving benefit of the doubt for now. It’s not productive for me right now that I feel alienated regarding poly.
To be clear, I’m not making a claim about what EA-at-large feels. EA could be overall welcoming to poly people, and there still be occasional “poly people are gross” posts on the EA Forum (that end up at +0 ish karma rather than +100 ish karma). I just do think that “poly people are gross” is one part of what this post was expressing.
I edited the post because I don’t want this to distract from the larger message. A few points:
1) The recent TIME article argues that a lot of the misconduct and harassment is related to polyamory in EA. A few quotes:
Three times in one year, she says, men at informal EA gatherings tried to convince her to join these so-called “polycules.” When Gopalakrishnan said she wasn’t interested, she recalls, they would “shame” her or try to pressure her, casting monogamy as a lifestyle governed by jealousy, and polyamory as a more enlightened and rational approach.
Several of the women who spoke to TIME said that the popularity of polyamory within EA fosters an environment in which men—often men who control career opportunities–feel empowered to recruit younger women into uncomfortable sexual relationships.
I’m not saying people can never consent to having multiple partners, but this is not okay. People should not feel pressured into lifestyle choices like these. There needs to be a place in EA for people who want to buy malaria nets and want nothing to do with Berkeley polycules.
2) Keep in mind that these analogies risk trivializing the oppression that the LGBTQ+ community has faced. Gay and queer individuals have faced and continue to face massive discrimination, and being gay is never a choice.
Keep in mind that these analogies risk trivializing the oppression that the LGBTQ+ community has faced. Gay and queer individuals have faced and continue to face massive discrimination, and being gay is never a choice.
As a gay person I really strongly object to this. I think it’s quite clear that in most of the modern US, being poly is significantly weirder and puts you more at risk of discrimination (e.g. of issues at work or with your family, or of having your partners recognised by the law) than being gay.
This is classic “oppression olympics” of a style that I think is nearly always counterproductive.
(NB: I actually agree that Bay Area poly culture is probably a contributing factor to a lot of the recent allegations and broader cultural issues, and that people in that culture need to take that possibility really seriously and think carefully about possibilities for change. I don’t think that legitimizes general anti-poly discrimination or derogatory language.)
Why would you take the TIME article at face value on this?
It doesn’t even get the language right. I’m poly, and I have never once heard people talk about “joining a polycule” as the thing someone chooses to do. That’s not how it works. You choose to date someone. “Polycule” just describes the set of people who you are dating, who your partner(s) are dating, who their partner(s) are dating, and so on. Dating someone doesn’t imply anything about how you have to relate to your metamours, much less people farther distant in the polycule. Sometimes you may never even know the full extent of your polycule.
I don’t know of a single poly person who would approve of the dynamic that the TIME article seems to describe, or any reason to think it is an accurate description of how EA works. Of course you shouldn’t shame people into dating you. Of course you shouldn’t leverage professional power for sexual benefit. Of course it’s good to be an EA and buy bed nets whether you are poly or monogomous. Nobody that I know of, poly or monogomous, disagrees with this. The fact that you think poly people do is what shows your prejudice. I suggest you try getting to know a poly person, talk to a poly person about their relationship(s), before opening your mouth on the subject again.
“predatory polyamorous rationalists” is pretty bigoted. What would we think if someone referred to “predatory gays”?
But I’m a polyamorous EA, and I’m frustrated that I’m now associated with predatory polyamorous rationalists too. Their comment didn’t make a claim that the association was right to make, or even that that cohort even exists, just that that association is happening.
I think the line is a bit better if you replace rationalists with pseudo-rationalists and tech-bros though.
[Edit: I think using the terms “bigoted language” or “appears bigoted” would have been better choices than “is bigoted”. I think you want to be very careful to avoid misunderstandings that you are calling the person bigoted. I realize that quoting the phrase implied that bigoted is referencing the language (not necessarily the person), but if you think someone is using imprecise language, that should make you update that your conversation partner is more likely to misunderstand your own language. Just as you want someone to speak extra-carefully about sexual predators, we can all speak extra-carefully about bigotry etc by throwing in some more qualifiers]
“I’m now associated with predatory polyamorous rationalists.” doesn’t explicitly assert that all poly people are predatory, but it does read to me similar to “I’m now associated with predatory gay rationalists.” The implication is that it’s gross to be associated with poly people, just as it’s gross to be associated with predators. (“This is not what I signed up for. ”) And the implication is that polyamory and predatory behavior are a sort of package deal.
Compare, for example, “I’m now associated with greedy Jewish EAs” or “I’m now associated with smelly autistic gamers”. Are these explicitly asserting that all Jews are greedy, or that all autistic people are smelly? No, but I get the message loud and clear. OP is not being subtle here regarding what they think of polyamorous people.
Yeah I guess that’s probably the normal assumption, and likely what was meant. To me I’d think of the sentence for a gay person as more like “I’m now associated with Jeffrey Dahmer” or “I’m now associated with groomers”. Like that could totally be said in a gay space, and the sentence doesn’t require qualifiers of “not all gay people”, by virtue of being said in a gay-friendly space.
But yeah I guess this case doesn’t hold if someone who isn’t poly says it. And the majority of EAs are monogamous, likely OP too.
This thread is helping me realize that I’m still assuming that EAs aren’t judging poly people here, and that the EA Forum is still a safe space for poly people. I’ll keep this potential blindspot in my mind but keep giving benefit of the doubt for now. It’s not productive for me right now that I feel alienated regarding poly.
❤️
To be clear, I’m not making a claim about what EA-at-large feels. EA could be overall welcoming to poly people, and there still be occasional “poly people are gross” posts on the EA Forum (that end up at +0 ish karma rather than +100 ish karma). I just do think that “poly people are gross” is one part of what this post was expressing.
For anybody who wants more on this precise subject, check out Cat Couplings Revisited.
(Full disclosure: am polyamorous rationalist ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
I have been trying to find this post and the older one for a few weeks now, but I couldn’t remember the term — thanks so much for linking it.
Thanks I’m glad I have language for this now
I edited the post because I don’t want this to distract from the larger message. A few points:
1) The recent TIME article argues that a lot of the misconduct and harassment is related to polyamory in EA. A few quotes:
I’m not saying people can never consent to having multiple partners, but this is not okay. People should not feel pressured into lifestyle choices like these. There needs to be a place in EA for people who want to buy malaria nets and want nothing to do with Berkeley polycules.
2) Keep in mind that these analogies risk trivializing the oppression that the LGBTQ+ community has faced. Gay and queer individuals have faced and continue to face massive discrimination, and being gay is never a choice.
As a gay person I really strongly object to this. I think it’s quite clear that in most of the modern US, being poly is significantly weirder and puts you more at risk of discrimination (e.g. of issues at work or with your family, or of having your partners recognised by the law) than being gay.
This is classic “oppression olympics” of a style that I think is nearly always counterproductive.
(NB: I actually agree that Bay Area poly culture is probably a contributing factor to a lot of the recent allegations and broader cultural issues, and that people in that culture need to take that possibility really seriously and think carefully about possibilities for change. I don’t think that legitimizes general anti-poly discrimination or derogatory language.)
Why would you take the TIME article at face value on this?
It doesn’t even get the language right. I’m poly, and I have never once heard people talk about “joining a polycule” as the thing someone chooses to do. That’s not how it works. You choose to date someone. “Polycule” just describes the set of people who you are dating, who your partner(s) are dating, who their partner(s) are dating, and so on. Dating someone doesn’t imply anything about how you have to relate to your metamours, much less people farther distant in the polycule. Sometimes you may never even know the full extent of your polycule.
I don’t know of a single poly person who would approve of the dynamic that the TIME article seems to describe, or any reason to think it is an accurate description of how EA works. Of course you shouldn’t shame people into dating you. Of course you shouldn’t leverage professional power for sexual benefit. Of course it’s good to be an EA and buy bed nets whether you are poly or monogomous. Nobody that I know of, poly or monogomous, disagrees with this. The fact that you think poly people do is what shows your prejudice. I suggest you try getting to know a poly person, talk to a poly person about their relationship(s), before opening your mouth on the subject again.