The currently labelled “meat eater problem” has been referred to a number of times during debate week. The forum wiki on the “meat eater” problem summarises it like this.
“Saving human lives, and making humans more prosperous, seem to be obviously good in terms of direct effects. However, humans consume animal products, and these animal products may cause considerable animal suffering. Therefore, improving human lives may lead to negative effects that outweigh the direct positive effects.”
I think this an important issue to discuss, although I think we should be extremely sensitive and cautious while discussing it.
On this note I think we should re-label this the meat eating problem, as I think there are big upsides with minimal downside.
Accuracy: I don’t think the core problem actually the people who’s lives we are saving, its that they then eat meat and cause suffering. I think its important to separate the people from the core problem as this better helps us consider possible solutions
Persuasion: I think we’re more able to persuade if we discuss the problem separated from the people. I can talk about the “meat eating problem” with non-EA friends and it will be hard but they might understand, but if through the very name of the issue I make the people themselves the problem, that can easily make me seem callous, and people can switch off.
Fairness: Even if you disagree with me on accuracy and double down that the core problem is the people, I think its pretty unfair to lump the label of a serious philosophical problem on the poorest people on earth—people with little education who are often just trying to survive and have never had the chance to consider this issue.
It seems to me that this problem was mainly thought up and developed by the EA community (which is great), and we could probably just decide to call it something different from here on out. I’m asking the forum team to consider changing the name on the wiki as well.
NB: @JWS 🔸 proposed this name change a couple of months ago, which got me thinking about it again.
It’s true that meat eating is closer to what we actually care about, but it’s worth singling out causal pathways from saving lives and increasing incomes/wealth, as potential backfire effects. “Meat eating problem” seems likely to be understood too generally as the problem of animal consumption, without explanation. I’d prefer a more unique expression to isolate the specific causal pathways.
Some other ideas:
meat eating backfire (problem)
more meat backfire/problem
meat backfire (problem)
(more) animal product backfire (problem)
(Eggs and other animal products besides meat matter, too.)
Yep I’m happy with any of these, I especially like the “meat eating backfire” because it kind of implies we’re shooting in the right direction in the first place. Also you are right that in terms of suffering (especially here in Uganda) its probably the eggs that might be a bigger problem even than the meat.
Of course, there are other ways meat (and other animal product) consumption could increase from well-intentioned EA interventions than just by saving lives or increasing incomes/wealth. For example, interventions that involve subsidizing animal welfare improvements can carry this backfire risk.
I’m less worried about confusion with other problems, because they don’t come up as often, and researchers are more likely to account for them in animal welfare research anyway. All effects on nonhuman animals are usually omitted from analyses of interventions aimed specifically at helping humans, including GHD and CGRs. It’s worth reminding people of these backfire risks.
I could also argue that “the meat eater problem” is just as ambiguous because it could easily be misinterpreted as just the problem that everyone all around the world eats meat in general.
I don’t think precision is necessarily the be all and end all of names ;).
I think it is clearer yes, but I don’t really like about it for my reasons 2 and 3 above, and I still think the direct problem isn’t about the people existing, but they fact they are eating meat after their lives are “saved”. Labeling it the “poor meat eater” problem could potentially be even worse in that it could be perceived to be sounding like its blaming poor people (although I know that’s not the intent).
I think it’s totally fair name of the problem, as its “unfairness” comes from the problem statement, not its name. “I think its pretty unfair to lump the label of a serious philosophical problem on the poorest people on earth” here for example, it’s meat eater problem being morally icky, not its name.
Accuracy: I don’t think the core problem actually the people who’s lives we are saving, its that they then eat meat and cause suffering. I think its important to separate the people from the core problem as this better helps us consider possible solutions
The main takeaway of the ‘meat eater problem’ (sorry!) is to reassess the cost-effectiveness of saving human lives, not necessarily to argue that we should focus on reducing animal consumption in lower-income countries. While reducing animal consumption is important, that’s not typically the central takeaway from this specific ‘problem’.
In this sense, the saving lives aspect is more central to the problem than the meat consumption aspect, though both are pivotal. So, in a purely logical sense, the term ‘meat eater problem’ might actually be more accurate.
Depends if there’s a better option. I agree with MichaelStJules when he says “’Meat eating problem’ seems likely to be understood too generally as the problem of animal consumption.” The other proposed options don’t seem that great to me because they seem to abstract too far away from the issue of saving lives which is at the core of the problem.
It’s worth noting there is a cost to changing the name of something. You’ll then have the exact same thing referred to by different names in different places which can lead to confusion. Also it’s very hard to get a whole community to change the way they refer to something that has been around for a while.
With regards to the “persuasion” point—I think the issue is that the problem we are talking about is inherently uncomfortable. We’re talking about how saving human lives may not be as good as we think it is because humans cause suffering to animals. This is naturally going to be hard for a lot of people to swallow the second you explain it to them, and I don’t think putting a nicer name on it is going to change that.
With regard to fairness…this is my personal view but this doesn’t bother me much. I don’t see evidence of individuals in lower income countries caring about the language we use on the EA Forum which is what would ultimately influence me on this point.
I’m aware I’m in the extreme minority here and I might be wrong. I fully expect to get further downvotes but if people disagree I would welcome pushback in the form of replies.
Can we call it the Meat EatING problem?
The currently labelled “meat eater problem” has been referred to a number of times during debate week. The forum wiki on the “meat eater” problem summarises it like this.
“Saving human lives, and making humans more prosperous, seem to be obviously good in terms of direct effects. However, humans consume animal products, and these animal products may cause considerable animal suffering. Therefore, improving human lives may lead to negative effects that outweigh the direct positive effects.”
I think this an important issue to discuss, although I think we should be extremely sensitive and cautious while discussing it.
On this note I think we should re-label this the meat eating problem, as I think there are big upsides with minimal downside.
Accuracy: I don’t think the core problem actually the people who’s lives we are saving, its that they then eat meat and cause suffering. I think its important to separate the people from the core problem as this better helps us consider possible solutions
Persuasion: I think we’re more able to persuade if we discuss the problem separated from the people. I can talk about the “meat eating problem” with non-EA friends and it will be hard but they might understand, but if through the very name of the issue I make the people themselves the problem, that can easily make me seem callous, and people can switch off.
Fairness: Even if you disagree with me on accuracy and double down that the core problem is the people, I think its pretty unfair to lump the label of a serious philosophical problem on the poorest people on earth—people with little education who are often just trying to survive and have never had the chance to consider this issue.
It seems to me that this problem was mainly thought up and developed by the EA community (which is great), and we could probably just decide to call it something different from here on out. I’m asking the forum team to consider changing the name on the wiki as well.
NB: @JWS 🔸 proposed this name change a couple of months ago, which got me thinking about it again.
It’s true that meat eating is closer to what we actually care about, but it’s worth singling out causal pathways from saving lives and increasing incomes/wealth, as potential backfire effects. “Meat eating problem” seems likely to be understood too generally as the problem of animal consumption, without explanation. I’d prefer a more unique expression to isolate the specific causal pathways.
Some other ideas:
meat eating backfire (problem)
more meat backfire/problem
meat backfire (problem)
(more) animal product backfire (problem)
(Eggs and other animal products besides meat matter, too.)
Yep I’m happy with any of these, I especially like the “meat eating backfire” because it kind of implies we’re shooting in the right direction in the first place. Also you are right that in terms of suffering (especially here in Uganda) its probably the eggs that might be a bigger problem even than the meat.
Of course, there are other ways meat (and other animal product) consumption could increase from well-intentioned EA interventions than just by saving lives or increasing incomes/wealth. For example, interventions that involve subsidizing animal welfare improvements can carry this backfire risk.
I’m less worried about confusion with other problems, because they don’t come up as often, and researchers are more likely to account for them in animal welfare research anyway. All effects on nonhuman animals are usually omitted from analyses of interventions aimed specifically at helping humans, including GHD and CGRs. It’s worth reminding people of these backfire risks.
It’s true.
I could also argue that “the meat eater problem” is just as ambiguous because it could easily be misinterpreted as just the problem that everyone all around the world eats meat in general.
I don’t think precision is necessarily the be all and end all of names ;).
When we were talking about this in 2012 we called it the “poor meat-eater problem”, which I think is clearer.
I think it is clearer yes, but I don’t really like about it for my reasons 2 and 3 above, and I still think the direct problem isn’t about the people existing, but they fact they are eating meat after their lives are “saved”. Labeling it the “poor meat eater” problem could potentially be even worse in that it could be perceived to be sounding like its blaming poor people (although I know that’s not the intent).
And if people in high-income countries die from pandemics, nukes or AI, that’s also good for farmed animals. It’s not just poor people.
I think ‘meat-eating problem’ > ‘meat-eater problem’ came in my comment and associated discussion here, but possibly somewhere else.[1]
(I still stand by the comment, and I don’t think it’s contradictory with my current vote placement on the debate week question)
I think it’s totally fair name of the problem, as its “unfairness” comes from the problem statement, not its name. “I think its pretty unfair to lump the label of a serious philosophical problem on the poorest people on earth” here for example, it’s meat eater problem being morally icky, not its name.
The main takeaway of the ‘meat eater problem’ (sorry!) is to reassess the cost-effectiveness of saving human lives, not necessarily to argue that we should focus on reducing animal consumption in lower-income countries. While reducing animal consumption is important, that’s not typically the central takeaway from this specific ‘problem’.
In this sense, the saving lives aspect is more central to the problem than the meat consumption aspect, though both are pivotal. So, in a purely logical sense, the term ‘meat eater problem’ might actually be more accurate.
You can argue that, but even then can points 2 and 3 not still make it better to use a different name?
Depends if there’s a better option. I agree with MichaelStJules when he says “’Meat eating problem’ seems likely to be understood too generally as the problem of animal consumption.” The other proposed options don’t seem that great to me because they seem to abstract too far away from the issue of saving lives which is at the core of the problem.
It’s worth noting there is a cost to changing the name of something. You’ll then have the exact same thing referred to by different names in different places which can lead to confusion. Also it’s very hard to get a whole community to change the way they refer to something that has been around for a while.
With regards to the “persuasion” point—I think the issue is that the problem we are talking about is inherently uncomfortable. We’re talking about how saving human lives may not be as good as we think it is because humans cause suffering to animals. This is naturally going to be hard for a lot of people to swallow the second you explain it to them, and I don’t think putting a nicer name on it is going to change that.
With regard to fairness…this is my personal view but this doesn’t bother me much. I don’t see evidence of individuals in lower income countries caring about the language we use on the EA Forum which is what would ultimately influence me on this point.
I’m aware I’m in the extreme minority here and I might be wrong. I fully expect to get further downvotes but if people disagree I would welcome pushback in the form of replies.