I take issue with the way you respond to the first quote; I think the way it’s written would likely give a newcomer to the discussion wildly incorrect assumptions about what I’m saying.[1]
I would consider my definition of veganism the “correct” one, as the practicality limit is baked into the official Vegan Society definition of veganism. But I think there are good reasons discussion in wealthy countries de-emphasizes the practicality limits.
Particularly, veganism seems susceptible to a lot of free riders that dilute the language and [arguably] make the movement weaker. I think the number of people that actually need to eat meat/eggs/whatever in the first world is much lower than the number of people that think they need to, and it feels like the way you swapped out my first quote & responded to it encourages the second group to free-ride without critically examining their own habits. [This is not at all meant as a personal criticism, just an explanation of my thought process.]
I’m using emotional language because this is obviously subjective, but I am assuming good faith and doing my best to articulate why the way you responded would make me feel like we’re on different “sides” if we were discussing this IRL. I would happily accept impoverished subsistence farmers who eat their cattle as vegan[2], but I have a hard-earned inherent suspicion of wealthy[3] people who eat multiple eggs for breakfast every morning because they “need” to. Neither are plant-based, but the “impossible to abstain from animal foods” bar is much higher for the average person in a developed country.
Honestly, in my first bullet point, the word “vegan” would be better replaced by “plant based”. Mea culpa.
[EDIT: The (unsupplemented) diet most humans are best adapted to may be mostly plants with some animal protein, but I am strongly against labelling that the unqualified “optimal” diet, for multiple reasons.
While I agree with your cruxes that not every person is physically capable of being 100% plant-based, I think most people would be more healthy on a decent plant-based diet than on the SAD, and given its ethical benefits I’d say fully plant-based is the “optimal” diet for anyone without very strong health/poverty reasons that make it undoable.]
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I prefer amelitarians to generic omnivores for logical suffering-reduction reasons, as long as they don’t dilute the definition of vegan. Though obviously I think it’d be better if everyone was fully vegan.
But [again, in the interest of full disclosure of the sake of meaningful discussion] I don’t have the same automatic emotional impression of them; it feels like other vegans are providing meaningful, credible, and falsifiable proof of good intent and therefore I automatically am much more trusting & willing to sacrifice for their good; I don’t have similar ingroupishness toward amelitarians (or pescetarians, etc.).
Whether this matters at all depends on what you consider the importance of community in pursuing major & sometimes lonely life changes.
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I’d strongly agree with the pepperoni/liver argument. Anyone who says the only reason they aren’t vegan is health but then buys e.g. a pepperoni pizza seems like they are more likely to be searching for free virtue points than actually concerned about the suffering of animals.[4] I’m not expecting humanity writ large to be morally perfect & entirely consistent, so this isn’t a judgment on whether those people are “good people.”
It seems psychologically much more difficult to be “almost vegan” than “fully vegan” or “not vegan.” In my experience it is much easier when eating any animal products to put animal suffering out of the mind than to live with constant internal conflict. My pet theory is that (in fully omnivorous cultures) it is emotionally harder to be a committed vegetarian than a committed vegan, etc.
For leather in particular, consider that the tanning of leather is also a health concern. My shoes are neither leather nor virgin plastic; this is veering off into minutiae, but there are plenty of attractive non-plastic vegan shoes (ex, or more common).
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It seems implied that you’re equating “full abstention isn’t possible” with “full abstention isn’t convenient” which is emphatically not what I’m saying. When I say vegans don’t use animal-derived ingredients except where it’s super impractical, I have in mind e.g. someone getting a vaccine developed using eggs because they can’t find an alternative plant-based vaccine. I would NOT include someone who e.g. eats red meat because they are worried about iron deficiency (when they could just take an iron supplement).
If this is what you meant to imply, then we have a genuine disagreement here.
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Provided they are minimizing animal suffering as much as is possible given their circumstances
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Relative to global standards, not country average
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Though, like I mention in my first post, this is really hard to judge. For example, some people with extreme sensory processing disorder might currently need to eat non-vegan junk food in order to avoid losing too much weight, even if the junk food itself isn’t health food. Though I think it’s obvious that my bar for this is much higher than yours.
I’ll be completely honest and say I came into this post expecting to be annoyed, mostly for reasons you address (especially the “you’re singling out veganism” and “sick of concern trolls” issues). However, after reading I agree with pretty much all of your cruxes.
Particularly, I would agree that most [current] vegans [living in omnivorous cultures] are sacrificing one of health/taste/cost/convenience.
I have been vegan for 2.5 years and have had no negative health effects (at least that I’m aware of, or that I didn’t have while omnivorous), but I would also consider myself decently well-educated in vegan nutrition.
I think there are some health issues that may make it too difficult for some people to eat plant based* (ex. genetic difficulties with converting provitamin beta-carotene into proper vitamin A, or simultaneous soy & gluten & nut allergies). I don’t think a perfect 100% of humans today could eat entirely plant based* with the agricultural and nutritional knowledge we currently have.
However, I strongly believe:
The number of people who could be healthy
vegans[EDIT: on a plant-based diet] is far, far higher than the number that are currentlyvegan[EDIT: plant-based]. It’s not 100%, but if forced to make a numerical estimate I’d say >=80% (if cost was not an issue), or >=50% of the U.S. at their current income.People who are unable to be fully plant-based should ideally still reduce their contributions to animal suffering, insofar as is possible & practical for them. A lot of people seem to commit to failing with abandon if they can’t be perfectly plant-based. [This is difficult to judge from the outside though, and I don’t feel comfortable passing this judgement on anyone I don’t know extremely well, and very few of those I do.]
If cultured meat production and/or nutritionally comparable meat replacement continues to advance, most objections will be pretty much irrelevant. I would be very suspicious of people who say they can’t eat plant-based for health reasons, but then don’t switch to cultured meat (/ nutritionally comparable meat replacements) if it becomes easily available.
There are no negative health effects to avoiding buying leather, for example. You can debate leather ethics on its own merits, but people who say “I think we should stop farming animals but I can’t be vegan for health reasons” who also buy leather seem like they are just searching for free virtue points.
All of the vegan places I’ve hung out in (that talk about practical veganism, not just the broad philosophical argument) have pointed toward the important bits of vegan nutrition. Ex. B12 being a running joke on VCJ. I don’t think general philosophical arguments should be required to contain implementation details, but I would consider any practical veganism guides that didn’t include at least info on B12 supplementation & preventing iron deficiency irresponsible.
Not sure we actually disagree much, but feel free to let me know. Honestly my biggest disagreement would just be that I don’t run into “there are no downsides!!!” messaging much and therefore this seems like a non-issue. Though I don’t spend much time reading about EA-specific vegans, so maybe it’s more of a local issue?
[*] - retaining a distinction between a plant-based diet (zero animal-origin products in food) and vegan (philosophical framework that extends beyond the diet but also allows more leniency when full abstention isn’t possible)