Unfortunately when I first joined EA and went vegan I would have been more judgmental but now I think I understand where you’re coming from.
My own anecdote: I have an antisocial hamster. He doesn’t like being held or pet, and would be happiest with minimal human interaction. There is no reason for me to be so emotionally attached to him — he was given up by his previous owner, but isn’t charismatic / affectionate like dogs and cats. Despite this, I adore him. I’ve built him the best home I can, as large & interesting as possible, for hundreds of dollars. I’ve taken him to the (expensive) exotic vet ASAP when he needs it so he can be maximally comfortable.
Most people buy hamsters for $20 and let them spend their whole lives in crappy plastic cages. I could have easily have either not sought him out, or after getting him, given him only “standard U.S.” levels of care. I don’t have a good theory for why he deserves hundreds of dollars worth of herbs and bedding and moss when basically any other use of my money would be more effective at reducing animal suffering. I will accept it’s basically unjustifiable. But whatever the me-separate-from-my-morality is — the non-consequentialist bits of squishy human reasoning — that me would be deeply emotionally harmed by harming the little dude.
My best answer is just that my hamster is part of the warm fuzzy budget, not the utilon budget.
Just wanted to chime in with my own random two cents. Lots of empathy to you, and best wishes with Tlalok. Even if it’s not maximally moral, I am glad to live in the same world as people like you.
I’ll be completely honest and say I came into this post expecting to be annoyed, mostly for reasons you address (especially the “you’re singling out veganism” and “sick of concern trolls” issues). However, after reading I agree with pretty much all of your cruxes.
Particularly, I would agree that most [current] vegans [living in omnivorous cultures] are sacrificing one of health/taste/cost/convenience.
I have been vegan for 2.5 years and have had no negative health effects (at least that I’m aware of, or that I didn’t have while omnivorous), but I would also consider myself decently well-educated in vegan nutrition.
I think there are some health issues that may make it too difficult for some people to eat plant based* (ex. genetic difficulties with converting provitamin beta-carotene into proper vitamin A, or simultaneous soy & gluten & nut allergies). I don’t think a perfect 100% of humans today could eat entirely plant based* with the agricultural and nutritional knowledge we currently have.
However, I strongly believe:
The number of people who could be healthy
vegans[EDIT: on a plant-based diet] is far, far higher than the number that are currentlyvegan[EDIT: plant-based]. It’s not 100%, but if forced to make a numerical estimate I’d say >=80% (if cost was not an issue), or >=50% of the U.S. at their current income.People who are unable to be fully plant-based should ideally still reduce their contributions to animal suffering, insofar as is possible & practical for them. A lot of people seem to commit to failing with abandon if they can’t be perfectly plant-based. [This is difficult to judge from the outside though, and I don’t feel comfortable passing this judgement on anyone I don’t know extremely well, and very few of those I do.]
If cultured meat production and/or nutritionally comparable meat replacement continues to advance, most objections will be pretty much irrelevant. I would be very suspicious of people who say they can’t eat plant-based for health reasons, but then don’t switch to cultured meat (/ nutritionally comparable meat replacements) if it becomes easily available.
There are no negative health effects to avoiding buying leather, for example. You can debate leather ethics on its own merits, but people who say “I think we should stop farming animals but I can’t be vegan for health reasons” who also buy leather seem like they are just searching for free virtue points.
All of the vegan places I’ve hung out in (that talk about practical veganism, not just the broad philosophical argument) have pointed toward the important bits of vegan nutrition. Ex. B12 being a running joke on VCJ. I don’t think general philosophical arguments should be required to contain implementation details, but I would consider any practical veganism guides that didn’t include at least info on B12 supplementation & preventing iron deficiency irresponsible.
Not sure we actually disagree much, but feel free to let me know. Honestly my biggest disagreement would just be that I don’t run into “there are no downsides!!!” messaging much and therefore this seems like a non-issue. Though I don’t spend much time reading about EA-specific vegans, so maybe it’s more of a local issue?
[*] - retaining a distinction between a plant-based diet (zero animal-origin products in food) and vegan (philosophical framework that extends beyond the diet but also allows more leniency when full abstention isn’t possible)