Some questions about tags (let me know if thereās a better home for these questions):
1. If people create their own tags, are these visible to everyone, or are they like private tags just for that person? (I assume itās the former; just want to check.)
2. Are there norms around what kinds of tags to create? Should there be?
E.g., should we be careful to avoid a proliferation of extremely fine-grained tags, or just go ahead and not worry?
As case studies, here are some tags I might create if no one tells I maybe shouldnāt:
Long reflection
Moral circles
Moral advocacy /ā values spreading
International relations /ā war
Maybe most 80k problem areas and career paths not directly covered in the tags already
3. Are there norms around editing tag descriptions? Should there be?
You say āThey also now have the ability to edit tag descriptions in a wiki-like fashionā, but when someone does something stupid on Wikipedia other people can view the article history and restore old versions. Here it looks like regular users canāt do that? That makes me slightly concerned about unilaterally making changes that seem good to me but might seem less good to other people.
As a case study, there are some tags that correspond to topics Iāve made collections of sources about (e.g., value drift). Iām inclined to add to the bottom of the description of each of those tags ā(Sources on this topic from outside the EA Forum can be found here[link].)ā
4. Would it be possible for tag pages to, in future, include links to sources from outside the EA Forum by means other than adding links in the description? Would that be good?
It seems to me that that could be cool, as an elegant way to have the tag page be the ideal go-to link to use, as itād then have a brief description of the topic and a comprehensive collection of sources.
The goal of tags is to be used as a curated collection over time.
Better to not tag events, as they wonāt be relevant after a short while.
Better to tag with more specific tags than broad tags.
Vote on tags if you think the post is very relevant to that tag (and so it will show up earlier in the case where people look up through posts on that tag) and downvote when itās less relevant.
Since tags are moderated, it is better to just add many tags and they will be checked for relevance and accuracy. So if you think that some tag would be useful, just go about it. (As a moderator here, I think that tags are very important and Iāll gladly spend time going over more tags if that causes more tags to be created)
Good tags should have a balance between not being too small to be irrelevant and not being too big so that the list wouldnāt help readers going through it and it would take a lot of overhead to tag new posts.
I donāt think that we should be that concerned with having a tag thatās too big on the EA forum.
Generally, one can filter through several tags, so Iām not sure what to make of it. @Habryka, Iād be interested in your opinion on this.
Tags should avoid being too near other tags. This can be clarified in the description.
Tag evolution:
The tagging system is collectively applied which limits its ability to maintain tags with high-degrees of subjective nuance.
Tags overall experience pressure to be as inclusive as possible. If a concept is at all loosely connected to a topic, someone will apply it.
The general result of the above is that a closely related, although theoretically distinct, concepts will end up blurred and having heavy redundant post overlap.
Tag names should be as clear as possible, even for people who donāt understand it in full neuance.
Itās perfectly fine to use multiple names when is appropriate.
Keep tag names brief. Use & or / instead of and. (I should rename Colā¤ctionsandResources).
Tag description should have the tag name in bold and link to related tags. (again, I should change things š)
[Low confidence ā Iām hashing out my own opinion in public, not trying to apply admin pressure]
I like the tags youāve listed there. If youād asked me to think about concepts in EA and written a (long) list, Iād hope I would have found those. I feel like Political Polarization is maybe more niche than I would do? Thereās a key difference between us and LW here, which is that LW is investing a large amount of time into creating a whole ontology out of their tagging system, and organizing thing hierarchically, which allows the highlighting of broader tags, while we canāt match them in hours devoted if Aaron and I both worked on it full time.
What Iāve just done is add a tag for most of the shortform collections Iād made that didnāt have a tag already. (With a few exceptions where the shortform collection was decently covered by an existing tag, or was really a fairly fuzzy or niche category.)
For some of these, including political polarisation, there arenāt many relevant Forum posts Iām aware of. But I felt like maybe that wasnāt a big issue, because more posts on the topics might still be created or found later?
And then thereās also the issue that some topics might be better off subsumed under something else. That might apply to Political Polarisation (though Iām not sure what itād be subsumed under?) and to Differential Progress (under Existential Risk or Longtermism (philosophy) or something).
For that reason I didnāt (yet?) make Global Catastrophic Risks; thatās clearly a non-niche topic, but is maybe covered by the Existential Risk tag (even if the concepts are meaningfully distinct). And itās why I havenāt (yet?) made Meta-Ethics (as it could fit under Moral Philosophy).
Could admins hide or delete tags that they deem overly niche? Iād feel positive about that option being on the table, so people can feel more comfortable about creating tags that might not be worthwhile (which in turn seems good, because many of those tags will indeed be worthwhile). If admins plan to be extremely reluctant to do that, then maybe itād be good to promote a more cautious norm around tag-creation?
I wish there was a community-led way of deciding about tags. I think LW is making the calls about their tag-classification that theyāve introduced. (See image.) So maybe it makes sense for us to be more opinionated.
The History tag is for posts that are strongly focused on historical events or trends which donāt necessarily connect to other tags (e.g., a post on the history of nuclear weapons should go in that tag instead), or that discuss or make heavy use of historical research methods.
Either way seems ok to me. My thinking was that, if overlap was allowed, a large portion of all posts could be seen as āHistoryā posts. But maybe thatās inaccurate or ok. You and other people can feel free to edit any descriptions on tags I made :)
Meta: This discussion makes me realise itās possible itād be valuable to have some equivalent of Wikipediaās ātalkā pages for tags. (But maybe thatād take more work than itās worth.)
ETA: I now think youāre right about the History tag, and have adjusted the description accordingly.
I tested 1 (added a Collections and Resources tag which I think youād like š), and it works fine and visible to anyone. The tags are moderated, so there is an approval process.
You say āThey also now have the ability to edit tag descriptions in a wiki-like fashionā, but when someone does something stupid on Wikipedia other people can view the article history and restore old versions. Here it looks like regular users canāt do that?
My guess is that this is a temporary bug. The History page should allow users to see any previous revisions that were made, and should allow you to compare arbitrary revisions. You can see what itās supposed to look like on LessWrong. With that, restoring previous versions should be pretty easy. I expect that bug will probably be fixed within a week or so, and until then it probably wonāt be much of a problem.
Seems like great changes!
Some questions about tags (let me know if thereās a better home for these questions):
1. If people create their own tags, are these visible to everyone, or are they like private tags just for that person? (I assume itās the former; just want to check.)
2. Are there norms around what kinds of tags to create? Should there be?
E.g., should we be careful to avoid a proliferation of extremely fine-grained tags, or just go ahead and not worry?
As case studies, here are some tags I might create if no one tells I maybe shouldnāt:
Long reflection
Moral circles
Moral advocacy /ā values spreading
International relations /ā war
Maybe most 80k problem areas and career paths not directly covered in the tags already
3. Are there norms around editing tag descriptions? Should there be?
You say āThey also now have the ability to edit tag descriptions in a wiki-like fashionā, but when someone does something stupid on Wikipedia other people can view the article history and restore old versions. Here it looks like regular users canāt do that? That makes me slightly concerned about unilaterally making changes that seem good to me but might seem less good to other people.
As a case study, there are some tags that correspond to topics Iāve made collections of sources about (e.g., value drift). Iām inclined to add to the bottom of the description of each of those tags ā(Sources on this topic from outside the EA Forum can be found here[link].)ā
4. Would it be possible for tag pages to, in future, include links to sources from outside the EA Forum by means other than adding links in the description? Would that be good?
It seems to me that that could be cool, as an elegant way to have the tag page be the ideal go-to link to use, as itād then have a brief description of the topic and a comprehensive collection of sources.
Regarding norms, some interesting notes from the Tagging FAQ at LW:
The goal of tags is to be used as a curated collection over time.
Better to not tag events, as they wonāt be relevant after a short while.
Better to tag with more specific tags than broad tags.
Vote on tags if you think the post is very relevant to that tag (and so it will show up earlier in the case where people look up through posts on that tag) and downvote when itās less relevant.
Since tags are moderated, it is better to just add many tags and they will be checked for relevance and accuracy. So if you think that some tag would be useful, just go about it. (As a moderator here, I think that tags are very important and Iāll gladly spend time going over more tags if that causes more tags to be created)
Good tags should have a balance between not being too small to be irrelevant and not being too big so that the list wouldnāt help readers going through it and it would take a lot of overhead to tag new posts.
I donāt think that we should be that concerned with having a tag thatās too big on the EA forum.
Generally, one can filter through several tags, so Iām not sure what to make of it. @Habryka, Iād be interested in your opinion on this.
Tags should avoid being too near other tags. This can be clarified in the description.
Tag evolution:
The tagging system is collectively applied which limits its ability to maintain tags with high-degrees of subjective nuance.
Tags overall experience pressure to be as inclusive as possible. If a concept is at all loosely connected to a topic, someone will apply it.
The general result of the above is that a closely related, although theoretically distinct, concepts will end up blurred and having heavy redundant post overlap.
Tag names should be as clear as possible, even for people who donāt understand it in full neuance.
Itās perfectly fine to use multiple names when is appropriate.
Keep tag names brief. Use & or / instead of and. (I should rename Colā¤ctionsandResources).
Tag description should have the tag name in bold and link to related tags. (again, I should change things š)
Thanks for this comment. In that case, Iāll go ahead and make those tags, and others at a similar level of granularity :)
ETA: Just noticed there was also a very brief discussion of tagging norms on the forum, here. (But that wasnāt about creating tags.)
[Low confidence ā Iām hashing out my own opinion in public, not trying to apply admin pressure]
I like the tags youāve listed there. If youād asked me to think about concepts in EA and written a (long) list, Iād hope I would have found those. I feel like Political Polarization is maybe more niche than I would do? Thereās a key difference between us and LW here, which is that LW is investing a large amount of time into creating a whole ontology out of their tagging system, and organizing thing hierarchically, which allows the highlighting of broader tags, while we canāt match them in hours devoted if Aaron and I both worked on it full time.
Thanks for that input.
(Also sort-of thinking aloud)
What Iāve just done is add a tag for most of the shortform collections Iād made that didnāt have a tag already. (With a few exceptions where the shortform collection was decently covered by an existing tag, or was really a fairly fuzzy or niche category.)
For some of these, including political polarisation, there arenāt many relevant Forum posts Iām aware of. But I felt like maybe that wasnāt a big issue, because more posts on the topics might still be created or found later?
And then thereās also the issue that some topics might be better off subsumed under something else. That might apply to Political Polarisation (though Iām not sure what itād be subsumed under?) and to Differential Progress (under Existential Risk or Longtermism (philosophy) or something).
For that reason I didnāt (yet?) make Global Catastrophic Risks; thatās clearly a non-niche topic, but is maybe covered by the Existential Risk tag (even if the concepts are meaningfully distinct). And itās why I havenāt (yet?) made Meta-Ethics (as it could fit under Moral Philosophy).
Could admins hide or delete tags that they deem overly niche? Iād feel positive about that option being on the table, so people can feel more comfortable about creating tags that might not be worthwhile (which in turn seems good, because many of those tags will indeed be worthwhile). If admins plan to be extremely reluctant to do that, then maybe itād be good to promote a more cautious norm around tag-creation?
I wish there was a community-led way of deciding about tags. I think LW is making the calls about their tag-classification that theyāve introduced. (See image.) So maybe it makes sense for us to be more opinionated.
Iāve now created the post Propose and vote on potential tags, which I hope can serve as a place to collect and sift through a bunch of ideas.
I feel like itās fine for them to overlap.
Either way seems ok to me. My thinking was that, if overlap was allowed, a large portion of all posts could be seen as āHistoryā posts. But maybe thatās inaccurate or ok. You and other people can feel free to edit any descriptions on tags I made :)
Meta: This discussion makes me realise itās possible itād be valuable to have some equivalent of Wikipediaās ātalkā pages for tags. (But maybe thatād take more work than itās worth.)
ETA: I now think youāre right about the History tag, and have adjusted the description accordingly.
I expect thatās on LWās roadmap.
Narrator: āHe was right.ā
I tested 1 (added a Collections and Resources tag which I think youād like š), and it works fine and visible to anyone. The tags are moderated, so there is an approval process.
I indeed like this tag! Thanks for making it :)
My guess is that this is a temporary bug. The History page should allow users to see any previous revisions that were made, and should allow you to compare arbitrary revisions. You can see what itās supposed to look like on LessWrong. With that, restoring previous versions should be pretty easy. I expect that bug will probably be fixed within a week or so, and until then it probably wonāt be much of a problem.