Some of these seem fine to me as norms, some of them seem bad. Some concrete cases:
Live with coworkers, especially when there is a power differential and especially when there is a direct report relationship
Many startups start from someone’s living room. LessWrong was built in the Event Horizon living room. This was great, I don’t think it hurt anyone, and it also helped the organization survive through the pandemic, which I think was quite good.
Retain someone as a full-time contractor or grant recipient for the long term, especially when it might not adhere to legal guidelines
I don’t understand this. There exist many long-term contracting relationships that Lightcone engages in. Seems totally fine to me. Also, many people prefer to be grant recipients instead of employees, those come with totally different relationship dynamics.
Offer employer-provided housing for more than a predefined and very short period of time, thereby making an employee’s housing dependent on their continued employment and allowing an employer access to an employee’s personal living space
I also find this kind of dicey, though at least in Lightcone’s case I think it’s definitely worth it, and I know of many other cases where it seems likely worth it. We own a large event venue, and we are currently offering one employee free housing in exchange for being on-call for things that happen in the night. This seems like a fair trade to me and very standard (one of the sections of our hotel is indeed explicitly zoned as a “care-taker unit” for this exact purpose).
Date the partner of their funder/grantee, especially when substantial conflict-of-interest mechanisms are not active
This seems really quite a lot too micromanagey to me. I agree that there should be COI mechanisms in place, but this seems like it’s really trying to enforce norms on parts of people’s lives that really are their business.
I don’t understand this. There exist many long-term contracting relationships that Lightcone engages in. Seems totally fine to me. Also, many people prefer to be grant recipients instead of employees, those come with totally different relationship dynamics.
Just to hopefully quickly clarify this point in particular: There is a legal distinction between full-time employees and contractors that has legal implications, and I think EA orgs somewhat frequently misclassify. It’s totally possible Lightcone has long-term contractor or grant recipient relationships that are fully above board and happy for all involved; however, I know some organizations do not. This can be a cost-saving mechanism for the organization that comes at the expense of not just their adherence to employment law, but also security for their team (e.g. everything from eligibility for benefits, to increased individual tax burden, to ineligibility for unemployment compensation).
Many startups start from someone’s living room. LessWrong was built in the Event Horizon living room. This was great, I don’t think it hurt anyone, and it also helped the organization survive through the pandemic, which I think was quite good.
I’m glad this went well for LessWrong! Sometimes, however, people discover their beloved roommate is a very bad coworker and it leads to a major blowup. I think this should be treated similarly to family business ventures: you and your brother or you and your spouse might work phenomenally together professionally, or it might destroy your family and end your marriage.
Another important distinction here might be the difference between a stable living situation predating a new shared project vs. an existing organization’s staff deciding to live together or pressuring new employees to live with other employees.
Either way, I think there is a risk that a discussion about an important campaign strategy turns into an argument about whose turn it is to wash the dishes.
I also find this kind of dicey, though at least in Lightcone’s case I think it’s definitely worth it, and I know of many other cases where it seems likely worth it. We own a large event venue, and we are currently offering one employee free housing in exchange for being on-call for things that happen in the night. This seems like a fair trade to me and very standard (one of the sections of our hotel is indeed explicitly zoned as a “care-taker unit” for this exact purpose).
I previously worked in a professional space where living onsite was an extremely common part of the job. Sometimes, it was great! Other times, it was horrible! Among the issues: hesitation to quit because it would mean lost housing, difficulty establishing work-life balance, invasion of privacy, decreased sense of agency and increased sense of reliance on and control by the employer, and many more.
This seems really quite a lot too micromanagey to me. I agree that there should be COI mechanisms in place, but this seems like it’s really trying to enforce norms on parts of people’s lives that really are their business.
I think this is a weird one for an employer/organization to try to enforce. But I think on an individual level thinking “how important is it for me to date this person my partner directly funds?” or “maybe my coworker should review my metamour’s grant application instead of me” makes a lot of sense.
I wouldn’t support a ban on all these practices, but surely they are a “risk”?
What if you just broke up with a coworker in a small office? What if you live together, and they are the type of roommate who drives everyone up the wall by failing to do the dishes on time, etc.? What if the roommate/partner needs to be fired for non-performance, and now you have a tremendously awkward situation at home?
It’s hard enough to execute at work on a high level, and see eye-to-eye with co-workers about strategy, workplace communication, and everything else. Add in romance and roommates (in a small office), and it obviously can lead to even more complicated and difficult scenarios.
Consider why it’s the case that every few months there is a long article about some organization that, in the best case, looks like it was run with the professionalism and adult supervision of a frat house.
I wouldn’t support a ban on all these practices, but surely they are a “risk”?
What if you just broke up with a coworker in a small office? What if you live together, and they are the type of roommate who drives everyone up the wall by failing to do the dishes on time, etc.? What if the roommate/partner needs to be fired for non-performance, and now you have a tremendously awkward situation at home?
Habryka didn’t mention anything in this comment about dating coworkers. I’m sure he’d agree that there is a risk (regardless of whether he agrees with you, or me for that matter, about the level or justifiability of risk).
The example you bring up of living with co-workers seems to be a case in which it turned out to be fine. I do think there are some scenarios where violating these “norms” is fine, but each of them is concerning to me. I think the low-quality model of an argument like this would be roughly “I did this allegedly risky thing and it turned out fine. Therefore, the thing isn’t risky.”
I would interpret each of these not as hard lines that shouldn’t be crossed, but as areas/factors of increased risk.
A husband and wife live together, and the wife is completely economically dependent on the husband. It is fine; they are happy together, and not planning to divorce. But because there is this “bad practice” (the practice of the wife not having access to money of her own), two things occur. First, her behavior is shaped by the perception of how easy/hard it is to separate. Second, if the wife wants to leave, it will be much harder to do so.
A much more crude analogy: Steve keeps a loaded gun at home in an unlocked cabinet, and claims that it is fine since none of his children have ever accidently shot themselves.
I apologize for using an analogies rather than something more rigorous. I am vaguely gesturing toward an idea, but I haven’t thought it through fully. Analogies are the written-down version of my vague gesturing.
All the situations you describe seem probably ok, but it also seems like the relevant org recognised they were potentially bad and took appropriate action. The OP is perhaps a little strong, but their suggestion to conduct an ongoing risk analysis seems fine here.
The OP is not titled “An incomplete list of activities that EA orgs should think about before doing” it is “An incomplete list of activites that EA orgs Probably Shouldn’t Do”. I agree that most of the things listed in the OP seem reasonable to think about and take into account in a risk analysis, but I doubt the OP is actually contributing to people doing much more of that.
I would love a post that would go into more detail on “when each of these seems appropriate to me”, which seems much more helpful to me.
I think “probably shouldn’t” is fair. In most cases, these should be avoided. However, in scenarios with appropriate mitigations and/or thought given, they can be fine. You’ve given some examples of doing this.
In terms of the post, it has generated lots of good discussion about which of these norms the community might want to adopt or how they should be modified. Therefore, the post is valuable in its current form. Its a discussion starter IMO, not a list of things that should be cited in future.
Some of these seem fine to me as norms, some of them seem bad. Some concrete cases:
Many startups start from someone’s living room. LessWrong was built in the Event Horizon living room. This was great, I don’t think it hurt anyone, and it also helped the organization survive through the pandemic, which I think was quite good.
I don’t understand this. There exist many long-term contracting relationships that Lightcone engages in. Seems totally fine to me. Also, many people prefer to be grant recipients instead of employees, those come with totally different relationship dynamics.
I also find this kind of dicey, though at least in Lightcone’s case I think it’s definitely worth it, and I know of many other cases where it seems likely worth it. We own a large event venue, and we are currently offering one employee free housing in exchange for being on-call for things that happen in the night. This seems like a fair trade to me and very standard (one of the sections of our hotel is indeed explicitly zoned as a “care-taker unit” for this exact purpose).
This seems really quite a lot too micromanagey to me. I agree that there should be COI mechanisms in place, but this seems like it’s really trying to enforce norms on parts of people’s lives that really are their business.
Just to hopefully quickly clarify this point in particular: There is a legal distinction between full-time employees and contractors that has legal implications, and I think EA orgs somewhat frequently misclassify. It’s totally possible Lightcone has long-term contractor or grant recipient relationships that are fully above board and happy for all involved; however, I know some organizations do not. This can be a cost-saving mechanism for the organization that comes at the expense of not just their adherence to employment law, but also security for their team (e.g. everything from eligibility for benefits, to increased individual tax burden, to ineligibility for unemployment compensation).
To respond to the other points:
I’m glad this went well for LessWrong! Sometimes, however, people discover their beloved roommate is a very bad coworker and it leads to a major blowup. I think this should be treated similarly to family business ventures: you and your brother or you and your spouse might work phenomenally together professionally, or it might destroy your family and end your marriage.
Another important distinction here might be the difference between a stable living situation predating a new shared project vs. an existing organization’s staff deciding to live together or pressuring new employees to live with other employees.
Either way, I think there is a risk that a discussion about an important campaign strategy turns into an argument about whose turn it is to wash the dishes.
I previously worked in a professional space where living onsite was an extremely common part of the job. Sometimes, it was great! Other times, it was horrible! Among the issues: hesitation to quit because it would mean lost housing, difficulty establishing work-life balance, invasion of privacy, decreased sense of agency and increased sense of reliance on and control by the employer, and many more.
I think this is a weird one for an employer/organization to try to enforce. But I think on an individual level thinking “how important is it for me to date this person my partner directly funds?” or “maybe my coworker should review my metamour’s grant application instead of me” makes a lot of sense.
I wouldn’t support a ban on all these practices, but surely they are a “risk”?
What if you just broke up with a coworker in a small office? What if you live together, and they are the type of roommate who drives everyone up the wall by failing to do the dishes on time, etc.? What if the roommate/partner needs to be fired for non-performance, and now you have a tremendously awkward situation at home?
It’s hard enough to execute at work on a high level, and see eye-to-eye with co-workers about strategy, workplace communication, and everything else. Add in romance and roommates (in a small office), and it obviously can lead to even more complicated and difficult scenarios.
Consider why it’s the case that every few months there is a long article about some organization that, in the best case, looks like it was run with the professionalism and adult supervision of a frat house.
Everything is a risk. The question is which things to track and how heavily to tax them.
Habryka didn’t mention anything in this comment about dating coworkers. I’m sure he’d agree that there is a risk (regardless of whether he agrees with you, or me for that matter, about the level or justifiability of risk).
The example you bring up of living with co-workers seems to be a case in which it turned out to be fine. I do think there are some scenarios where violating these “norms” is fine, but each of them is concerning to me. I think the low-quality model of an argument like this would be roughly “I did this allegedly risky thing and it turned out fine. Therefore, the thing isn’t risky.”
I would interpret each of these not as hard lines that shouldn’t be crossed, but as areas/factors of increased risk.
Rough analogies:[1]
A husband and wife live together, and the wife is completely economically dependent on the husband. It is fine; they are happy together, and not planning to divorce. But because there is this “bad practice” (the practice of the wife not having access to money of her own), two things occur. First, her behavior is shaped by the perception of how easy/hard it is to separate. Second, if the wife wants to leave, it will be much harder to do so.
A much more crude analogy: Steve keeps a loaded gun at home in an unlocked cabinet, and claims that it is fine since none of his children have ever accidently shot themselves.
I apologize for using an analogies rather than something more rigorous. I am vaguely gesturing toward an idea, but I haven’t thought it through fully. Analogies are the written-down version of my vague gesturing.
All the situations you describe seem probably ok, but it also seems like the relevant org recognised they were potentially bad and took appropriate action. The OP is perhaps a little strong, but their suggestion to conduct an ongoing risk analysis seems fine here.
The OP is not titled “An incomplete list of activities that EA orgs should think about before doing” it is “An incomplete list of activites that EA orgs Probably Shouldn’t Do”. I agree that most of the things listed in the OP seem reasonable to think about and take into account in a risk analysis, but I doubt the OP is actually contributing to people doing much more of that.
I would love a post that would go into more detail on “when each of these seems appropriate to me”, which seems much more helpful to me.
I think “probably shouldn’t” is fair. In most cases, these should be avoided. However, in scenarios with appropriate mitigations and/or thought given, they can be fine. You’ve given some examples of doing this.
In terms of the post, it has generated lots of good discussion about which of these norms the community might want to adopt or how they should be modified. Therefore, the post is valuable in its current form. Its a discussion starter IMO, not a list of things that should be cited in future.