Reflections on “Status Handcuffs” over one’s career
(This was edited using Claude)
Having too much professional success early on can ironically restrict you later on. People typically are hesitant to go down in status when choosing their next job. This can easily mean that “staying in career limbo” can be higher-status than actually working. At least when you’re in career limbo, you have a potential excuse.
This makes it difficult to change careers. It’s very awkward to go from “manager of a small team” to “intern,” but that can be necessary if you want to learn a new domain, for instance.
The EA Community Context
In the EA community, some aspects of this are tricky. The funders very much want to attract new and exciting talent. But this means that the older talent is in an awkward position.
The most successful get to take advantage of the influx of talent, with more senior leadership positions. But there aren’t too many of these positions to go around. It can feel weird to work on the same level or under someone more junior than yourself.
Pragmatically, I think many of the old folks around EA are either doing very well, or are kind of lost/exploring other avenues. Other areas allow people to have more reputable positions, but these are typically not very EA/effective areas. Often E2G isn’t very high-status in these clusters, so I think a lot of these people just stop doing much effective work.
Similar Patterns in Other Fields
This reminds me of law firms, which are known to have “up or out” cultures. I imagine some of this acts as a formal way to prevent this status challenge—people who don’t highly succeed get fully kicked out, in part because they might get bitter if their career gets curtailed. An increasingly narrow set of lawyers continue on the Partner track.
I’m also used to hearing about power struggles for senior managers close to retirement at big companies, where there’s a similar struggle. There’s a large cluster of highly experienced people who have stopped being strong enough to stay at the highest levels of management. Typically these people stay too long, then completely leave. There can be few paths to gracefully go down a level or two while saving face and continuing to provide some amount of valuable work.
But around EA and a lot of tech, I think this pattern can happen much sooner—like when people are in the age range of 22 to 35. It’s more subtle, but it still happens.
Finding Solutions
I’m very curious if it’s feasible for some people to find solutions to this. One extreme would be, “Person X was incredibly successful 10 years ago. But that success has faded, and now the only useful thing they could do is office cleaning work. So now they do office cleaning work. And we’ve all found a way to make peace with this.”
Traditionally, in Western culture, such an outcome would be seen as highly shameful. But in theory, being able to find peace and satisfaction from something often seen as shameful for (what I think of as overall-unfortunate) reasons could be considered a highly respectable thing to do.
Perhaps there could be a world where [valuable but low-status] activities are identified, discussed, and later turned to be high-status.
The EA Ideal vs. Reality
Back to EA. In theory, EAs are people who try to maximize their expected impact. In practice, EA is a specific ideology that typically has a limited impact on people (at least compared to strong Religious groups, for instance). I think that the EA scene has demonstrated success at getting people to adjust careers (in circumstances where it’s fairly cheap and/or favorable to do so), and has created an ecosystem that rewards people for certain EA behaviors. But at the same time, people typically feature with a great deal of non-EA constraints that must be continually satisfied for them to be productive; money, family, stability, health, status, etc.
Personal Reflection
Personally, every few months I really wonder what might make sense for me. I’d love to be the kind of person who would be psychologically okay doing the lowest-status work for the youngest or lowest-status people. At the same time, knowing myself, I’m nervous that taking a very low-status position might cause some of my mind to feel resentment and burnout. I’ll continue to reflect on this.
I’ve just ran into this, so excuse a bit of grave digging. As someone who has entered the EA community with prior career experience I disagree with your premise
“It’s very awkward to go from “manager of a small team” to “intern,” but that can be necessary if you want to learn a new domain, for instance.”
To me this kind of situation just shouldn’t happen. It’s not a question of status, it’s a question of inefficiency. If I have managerial experience and the organization I’d be joining can only offer me the exact same job they’d be offering to a fresh grad, then they are simply wasting my potential. I’d be better off at a place which can appreciate what I bring and the organization would be better off with someone who has a fresher mind and less tempting alternatives.
IMO the problem is not with the fact that people are unwilling to take a step down. The problem is with EA orgs unwilling or unable to leverage the transferrable skills of experienced professionals, forcing them into entry-level positions instead.
A related issue I have actually encountered is something like “but you seem overqualified for this role we are hiring for”. Even if previously successful people wanted to take a “less prestigious” role, they might encounter real problems in doing so. I hope the EA eco system might have some immunity to this though—as hopefully the mission alignment will be strong enough evidence of why such a person might show interest in a “lower” role.
As a single data point: seconded. I’ve explicitly been asked by interviewers (in a job interview) why I left a “higher title job” for a “lower title job,” with the implication that it needed some special justification. I suspect there have also been multiple times in which someone looking at my resume saw that transition, made an assumption about it, and choose to reject me. (although this probably happens with non-EA jobs more often than EA jobs, as the “lower title role” was with a well-known EA organization)
Pragmatically, I think many of the old folks around EA are either doing very well, or are kind of lost/exploring other avenues. Other areas allow people to have more reputable positions, but these are typically not very EA/effective areas. Often E2G isn’t very high-status in these clusters, so I think a lot of these people just stop doing much effective work.
I haven’t really noticed this happening very much empirically, but I do think the effect you are talking about is quite intuitive. Have you seen many cases of this that you’re confident are correct (e.g. they aren’t lost for other reasons like working on non-public projects or being burnt out)? No need to mention specific names.
In theory, EAs are people who try to maximize their expected impact. In practice, EA is a light ideology that typically has a limited impact on people. I think that the EA scene has demonstrated success at getting people to adjust careers (in circumstances where it’s fairly cheap and/or favorable to do so)
This seems incorrect to me, in absolute terms. By the standards of ~any social movement, EAs are very sacrificial and focused on increasing their impact. I suspect you somewhat underrate how rare it is outside of EA to be highly committed to ~any non-self-serving principles seriously enough to sacrifice significant income and change careers, particularly in new institutions/movements.
Have you seen many cases of this that you’re confident are correct (e.g. they aren’t lost for other reasons like working on non-public projects or being burnt out)? No need to mention specific names.
I’m sure that very few of these are explained by “non-public projects”.
I’m unsure about burnout. I’m not sure where the line is between “can’t identify high-status work to do” and burnout. I expect that the two are highly correlated. My guess is that they don’t literally think of it as “I’m low status now”, instead I’d expect them to feel emotions like resentment / anger / depression. But I’d also expect that if we could change the status lever, other negative feelings would go away. (I think that status is a big deal for people! Like, status means you have a good career, get to be around people you like, etc)
> I suspect you somewhat underrate how rare it is outside of EA to be highly committed to ~any non-self-serving principles seriously enough to sacrifice significant income and change careers.
I suspect we might have different ideologies in mind to compare to, and correspondingly, that we’re not disagreeing much.
I think that a lot of recently-popular movements like BLM or even MAGA didn’t change the average lifestyle of the median participant much at all, though much of this is because they are far larger.
But religious groups are far more intense, for example. Or maybe take dedicated professional specialties like ballet or elite music, which can require intense sacrifices.
Thanks for writing this, this is also something I have been thinking about and you’ve expressed it more eloquently.
One thing I have thought might be useful is at times showing restraint with job titling. I’ve observed cases where people have had a title for example Director in a small org or growing org, and in a larger org this role might be a coordinator, lead, admin.
I’ve thought at times this doesn’t necessarily set people up for long term career success as the logical career step in terms of skills and growth, or a career shift, often is associated with a lower sounding title. Which I think decreases motivation to take on these roles.
At the same time I have seen people, including myself, take a decrease in salary and title, in order to shift careers and move forward.
I agree with you. I think in EA this is especially the case because much of the community-building work is focused on universities/students, and because of the titling issue someone else mentioned. I don’t think someone fresh out of uni should be head of anything, wah. But the EA movement is young and was started by young people, so it’ll take a while for career-long progression funnels to develop organically.
Reflections on “Status Handcuffs” over one’s career
(This was edited using Claude)
Having too much professional success early on can ironically restrict you later on. People typically are hesitant to go down in status when choosing their next job. This can easily mean that “staying in career limbo” can be higher-status than actually working. At least when you’re in career limbo, you have a potential excuse.
This makes it difficult to change careers. It’s very awkward to go from “manager of a small team” to “intern,” but that can be necessary if you want to learn a new domain, for instance.
The EA Community Context
In the EA community, some aspects of this are tricky. The funders very much want to attract new and exciting talent. But this means that the older talent is in an awkward position.
The most successful get to take advantage of the influx of talent, with more senior leadership positions. But there aren’t too many of these positions to go around. It can feel weird to work on the same level or under someone more junior than yourself.
Pragmatically, I think many of the old folks around EA are either doing very well, or are kind of lost/exploring other avenues. Other areas allow people to have more reputable positions, but these are typically not very EA/effective areas. Often E2G isn’t very high-status in these clusters, so I think a lot of these people just stop doing much effective work.
Similar Patterns in Other Fields
This reminds me of law firms, which are known to have “up or out” cultures. I imagine some of this acts as a formal way to prevent this status challenge—people who don’t highly succeed get fully kicked out, in part because they might get bitter if their career gets curtailed. An increasingly narrow set of lawyers continue on the Partner track.
I’m also used to hearing about power struggles for senior managers close to retirement at big companies, where there’s a similar struggle. There’s a large cluster of highly experienced people who have stopped being strong enough to stay at the highest levels of management. Typically these people stay too long, then completely leave. There can be few paths to gracefully go down a level or two while saving face and continuing to provide some amount of valuable work.
But around EA and a lot of tech, I think this pattern can happen much sooner—like when people are in the age range of 22 to 35. It’s more subtle, but it still happens.
Finding Solutions
I’m very curious if it’s feasible for some people to find solutions to this. One extreme would be, “Person X was incredibly successful 10 years ago. But that success has faded, and now the only useful thing they could do is office cleaning work. So now they do office cleaning work. And we’ve all found a way to make peace with this.”
Traditionally, in Western culture, such an outcome would be seen as highly shameful. But in theory, being able to find peace and satisfaction from something often seen as shameful for (what I think of as overall-unfortunate) reasons could be considered a highly respectable thing to do.
Perhaps there could be a world where [valuable but low-status] activities are identified, discussed, and later turned to be high-status.
The EA Ideal vs. Reality
Back to EA. In theory, EAs are people who try to maximize their expected impact. In practice, EA is a specific ideology that typically has a limited impact on people (at least compared to strong Religious groups, for instance). I think that the EA scene has demonstrated success at getting people to adjust careers (in circumstances where it’s fairly cheap and/or favorable to do so), and has created an ecosystem that rewards people for certain EA behaviors. But at the same time, people typically feature with a great deal of non-EA constraints that must be continually satisfied for them to be productive; money, family, stability, health, status, etc.
Personal Reflection
Personally, every few months I really wonder what might make sense for me. I’d love to be the kind of person who would be psychologically okay doing the lowest-status work for the youngest or lowest-status people. At the same time, knowing myself, I’m nervous that taking a very low-status position might cause some of my mind to feel resentment and burnout. I’ll continue to reflect on this.
I’ve just ran into this, so excuse a bit of grave digging. As someone who has entered the EA community with prior career experience I disagree with your premise
“It’s very awkward to go from “manager of a small team” to “intern,” but that can be necessary if you want to learn a new domain, for instance.”
To me this kind of situation just shouldn’t happen. It’s not a question of status, it’s a question of inefficiency. If I have managerial experience and the organization I’d be joining can only offer me the exact same job they’d be offering to a fresh grad, then they are simply wasting my potential. I’d be better off at a place which can appreciate what I bring and the organization would be better off with someone who has a fresher mind and less tempting alternatives.
IMO the problem is not with the fact that people are unwilling to take a step down. The problem is with EA orgs unwilling or unable to leverage the transferrable skills of experienced professionals, forcing them into entry-level positions instead.
A related issue I have actually encountered is something like “but you seem overqualified for this role we are hiring for”. Even if previously successful people wanted to take a “less prestigious” role, they might encounter real problems in doing so. I hope the EA eco system might have some immunity to this though—as hopefully the mission alignment will be strong enough evidence of why such a person might show interest in a “lower” role.
As a single data point: seconded. I’ve explicitly been asked by interviewers (in a job interview) why I left a “higher title job” for a “lower title job,” with the implication that it needed some special justification. I suspect there have also been multiple times in which someone looking at my resume saw that transition, made an assumption about it, and choose to reject me. (although this probably happens with non-EA jobs more often than EA jobs, as the “lower title role” was with a well-known EA organization)
Good point. And sorry you had to go through that, it sounds quite frustrating.
Pragmatically, I think many of the old folks around EA are either doing very well, or are kind of lost/exploring other avenues. Other areas allow people to have more reputable positions, but these are typically not very EA/effective areas. Often E2G isn’t very high-status in these clusters, so I think a lot of these people just stop doing much effective work.
I haven’t really noticed this happening very much empirically, but I do think the effect you are talking about is quite intuitive. Have you seen many cases of this that you’re confident are correct (e.g. they aren’t lost for other reasons like working on non-public projects or being burnt out)? No need to mention specific names.
In theory, EAs are people who try to maximize their expected impact. In practice, EA is a light ideology that typically has a limited impact on people. I think that the EA scene has demonstrated success at getting people to adjust careers (in circumstances where it’s fairly cheap and/or favorable to do so)
This seems incorrect to me, in absolute terms. By the standards of ~any social movement, EAs are very sacrificial and focused on increasing their impact. I suspect you somewhat underrate how rare it is outside of EA to be highly committed to ~any non-self-serving principles seriously enough to sacrifice significant income and change careers, particularly in new institutions/movements.
I’m sure that very few of these are explained by “non-public projects”.
I’m unsure about burnout. I’m not sure where the line is between “can’t identify high-status work to do” and burnout. I expect that the two are highly correlated. My guess is that they don’t literally think of it as “I’m low status now”, instead I’d expect them to feel emotions like resentment / anger / depression. But I’d also expect that if we could change the status lever, other negative feelings would go away. (I think that status is a big deal for people! Like, status means you have a good career, get to be around people you like, etc)
> I suspect you somewhat underrate how rare it is outside of EA to be highly committed to ~any non-self-serving principles seriously enough to sacrifice significant income and change careers.
I suspect we might have different ideologies in mind to compare to, and correspondingly, that we’re not disagreeing much.
I think that a lot of recently-popular movements like BLM or even MAGA didn’t change the average lifestyle of the median participant much at all, though much of this is because they are far larger.
But religious groups are far more intense, for example. Or maybe take dedicated professional specialties like ballet or elite music, which can require intense sacrifices.
Thanks for writing this, this is also something I have been thinking about and you’ve expressed it more eloquently.
One thing I have thought might be useful is at times showing restraint with job titling. I’ve observed cases where people have had a title for example Director in a small org or growing org, and in a larger org this role might be a coordinator, lead, admin.
I’ve thought at times this doesn’t necessarily set people up for long term career success as the logical career step in terms of skills and growth, or a career shift, often is associated with a lower sounding title. Which I think decreases motivation to take on these roles.
At the same time I have seen people, including myself, take a decrease in salary and title, in order to shift careers and move forward.
I agree with you. I think in EA this is especially the case because much of the community-building work is focused on universities/students, and because of the titling issue someone else mentioned. I don’t think someone fresh out of uni should be head of anything, wah. But the EA movement is young and was started by young people, so it’ll take a while for career-long progression funnels to develop organically.