1. As far as I know [edited] there hasn’t been a previous rule around strong language not resulting in a front page ban since the language was toned down in response to feedback and the comments were civil and productive. (Note that the author still hasn’t changed the title, which a number of people have commented on, but this doesn’t seem like it would have changed the mod decision)
2. I also agree with Linch’s point that correctness hasn’t been a distinction point either.
3. Several people left responses and criticisms of the decision, all were popular with readers but the mod team has not (yet) replied or substantively engaged with those comments (which seem reasonable).
It is really hard to be highly critical of a persons behavior without coming off as uncharitable or mean. If you see someone regularly make shockingly wrong statements, and then double down on them when confronted, are you allowed to describe them as “egregiously overconfident”? “shockingly overconfident”? “regularly overconfident to a large degree”? Which of these are uncharitable, and which of these are just an accurate statement of your beliefs about a person’s behavior?
This is why people really need to be cut some slack when engaging in good faith criticism of public figures. Ignoring all criticism that is not presented in a sufficently nice tone is not far off from just ignoring all criticism.
I just think this is a “law of opposite advice” situation! You’re right, but the point is that EAs are already trying so so hard to correct in this direction that it’s a little silly sometimes (certainly on the forum). The hugboxing frame makes a lot of sense to me.
I think that this is an iterated game. I’d encourage people to have their own blogs, with their own rss feeds and comment sections (as in, e.g., substack), and then occasionally crosspost to the EA Forum. Then EA Forum censoriousness doesn’t matter as much.
Is the game something like “EA online discussion norms” and the strategy that you are proposing something like “make your writings independent of the EA forum, and allow for competing discussion spaces on your posts”?
Is the game something like “EA online discussion norms”
Mmh, probably, but I was thinking about it less abstractly, e.g., CEA is offering the EA community a forum with such and such characteristics, the EA community responds by xyz, etc.
make your writings independent of the EA forum, and allow for competing discussion spaces on your posts
FWIW I think it would likely be hard for most people (especially those without a strong internet presence or who don’t write regularly) to have a rich comments section on other platforms, but I could be underestimating the difficulty of getting blog readers.
Yep. At the same time, it becomes easier over the course of a career. And the easier option is to post something on substack and crosspost it to the forum, which gets a bunch of the benefits.
The point is that it seemed like the post was banned from the front page because of strong language, and this doesn’t see to have been a rule that has been enforced in the past.
EAforum needs a broad “obvious bad actor” ban, since EA is the kind of group where an unusually large proportion of people are sufficiently capable (and motivated) at thinking outside the box to work around/bend rules in order to achieve a goal.
It’s possible that strategic ambiguity might be neccesary, since such a large number of people are willing and able to spend a ton of time thinking of ways to work around the rules in pursuit of an objective. If the rules aren’t clear, then people can’t form complex plots to find loopholes or historically unprecedented approaches.
I’m disappointed in the mod team’s recent actions regarding this post on Yudkowsky.
1. As far as I know [edited] there hasn’t been a previous rule around strong language not resulting in a front page ban since the language was toned down in response to feedback and the comments were civil and productive. (Note that the author still hasn’t changed the title, which a number of people have commented on, but this doesn’t seem like it would have changed the mod decision)
2. I also agree with Linch’s point that correctness hasn’t been a distinction point either.
3. Several people left responses and criticisms of the decision, all were popular with readers but the mod team has not (yet) replied or substantively engaged with those comments (which seem reasonable).
Edits / notes since posting:
I edited 1) and added point 2) after Linch’s clarification comment.
Note that Lizka responded to the post a few hours after this shortform went up (thanks for flagging Lorenzo)
It is really hard to be highly critical of a persons behavior without coming off as uncharitable or mean. If you see someone regularly make shockingly wrong statements, and then double down on them when confronted, are you allowed to describe them as “egregiously overconfident”? “shockingly overconfident”? “regularly overconfident to a large degree”? Which of these are uncharitable, and which of these are just an accurate statement of your beliefs about a person’s behavior?
This is why people really need to be cut some slack when engaging in good faith criticism of public figures. Ignoring all criticism that is not presented in a sufficently nice tone is not far off from just ignoring all criticism.
I just think this is a “law of opposite advice” situation! You’re right, but the point is that EAs are already trying so so hard to correct in this direction that it’s a little silly sometimes (certainly on the forum). The hugboxing frame makes a lot of sense to me.
I think that this is an iterated game. I’d encourage people to have their own blogs, with their own rss feeds and comment sections (as in, e.g., substack), and then occasionally crosspost to the EA Forum. Then EA Forum censoriousness doesn’t matter as much.
Is the game something like “EA online discussion norms” and the strategy that you are proposing something like “make your writings independent of the EA forum, and allow for competing discussion spaces on your posts”?
Mmh, probably, but I was thinking about it less abstractly, e.g., CEA is offering the EA community a forum with such and such characteristics, the EA community responds by xyz, etc.
Yes, but not “competing”, such that either option is ok, but “separate”, such that the EA forum doesn’t have to have a role to play. For example, this blogpost of mine: https://nunosempere.com/blog/2023/07/19/better-harder-faster-stronger/ has a rich comment section, and it didn’t need the EA forum to have it.
FWIW I think it would likely be hard for most people (especially those without a strong internet presence or who don’t write regularly) to have a rich comments section on other platforms, but I could be underestimating the difficulty of getting blog readers.
Yep. At the same time, it becomes easier over the course of a career. And the easier option is to post something on substack and crosspost it to the forum, which gets a bunch of the benefits.
Lizka just replied here
To be clear, that was not my exact claim. My claim was that correctness has not historically been a frontpage/personal post distinction.
Thanks for clarifying Linch, removing the reference to your comment since it’s making a different claim.
(out of curiosity, do you agree with that statement as it stands?)
tbh I’m confused about the double negative and I’m not entirely sure what the exact statement I might be agreeing with is.
The point is that it seemed like the post was banned from the front page because of strong language, and this doesn’t see to have been a rule that has been enforced in the past.
EAforum needs a broad “obvious bad actor” ban, since EA is the kind of group where an unusually large proportion of people are sufficiently capable (and motivated) at thinking outside the box to work around/bend rules in order to achieve a goal.
EAforum currently has guidelines on this, but no clear policy:
It’s possible that strategic ambiguity might be neccesary, since such a large number of people are willing and able to spend a ton of time thinking of ways to work around the rules in pursuit of an objective. If the rules aren’t clear, then people can’t form complex plots to find loopholes or historically unprecedented approaches.
Nice rendering! It’s very pretty