This is honestly really embarrassing. I’ve read the comments and I don’t want to argue that the economic calculus doesn’t stack up, but the optics here makes this extremely EV negative. Every journalist is looking for material to write about EA since the SBF debacle and this kind of stuff is prime material.
Individual high profile media pieces can significantly reduce donations for years and years, kill startups and organisations and make it harder to find people to partner with due to lowered reputation. I have friends, colleagues and family message me about Wytham abbey and it makes me embarrassed, they are now less likely to donate to causes we care about here. I will not defend this decision to them, regardless of what the economic calculus around conferences/event costs says.
I got into EA for the empathetic and rational approach to doing good and I will continue donating to EA causes and using EA methodology for those same reasons. However, for outsiders, EA is a coherent “movement” that you “support” by donating. This must be taken into consideration when you act under the “EA brand”. This movement is big now and needs to be careful about the way this brand is managed, because, as unsexy as it is, both current and future donations depends on that brand.
I will not defend this decision to them, regardless of what the economic calculus around conferences/event costs says.
What do you think would happen if you responded to a friend’s question with something like this?
“Yes, they purchased this property as a way to save money on event hosting + lodging for attendees. They host a ton of people for events each year, so they think the space will pay for itself over time. It’s also an asset that can be held long-term, instead of money going down the drain on rental costs. A lot of large organizations own centers like this to host events.
“Zero public donations went into this — it was bought with a grant specifically for this project.”
You’re obviously under no obligation to spend time/energy doing this kind of thing! But I’m curious how you think the people messaging you would react.
(I’ve had a lot of conversations with my parents over the years about weird EA things, and I find that it’s good practice for my other comms work.)
*****
I agree that large purchases can be spun in embarrassing ways, but I’m not sure how orgs are meant to respond to this. Does the risk of bad press mean that no one in EA can purchase a building over a certain price, and buildings should be rented instead? Or that buildings can be purchased, but they have to be bland newer buildings instead of fancy-looking older buildings?
I’m a big fan of communicating more clearly about decisions like this, especially when there’s PR risk inherent to the project. But I’m very wary of PR concerns stopping people from making sound decisions about infrastructure.
*****
Also, the “I will not defend this decision to them” point could extend to things like e.g. spending any amount of money on AI alignment, which is also weird and embarrassing to talk about.
No one is obligated to defend AI work, either — I’d be happy to have thousands of people just advocating for malaria funding in their spare time! — but I don’t like when people argue that AI alignment is bad for the EA brand and should thus be deemphasized (I’ve been seeing a lot of this lately in the media).
Thanks for sharing, Aaron! I really appreciate these short explanations. One of my biggest worries was that this would be something difficult to explain to outsiders, but you helped to reduce that worry significantly.
This is basically what I said, but thank you for the template answer, it’s good to have one. A few people have argued that it feels like this move shows that EA has reverted to the default path that charitable organisations take where they end up bloated and spending lots of money on ops, HR and lobbying. I’m not saying I believe this, but I think it’s bad for this image to be validated in any way.
Yeah this is my biggest concern. The whole value proposition of EA was to get away from the normal failure modes of charities. If they are falling into the same traps of using shoddy reasoning to justify self serving behaviour that’s a major structural problem, not just a matter of a single decision.
A few people have argued that it feels like this move shows that EA has reverted to the default path that charitable organisations take where they end up bloated and spending lots of money on ops, HR and lobbying.
I think it’s probably correct to update in that direction based on this. (Though probably not all the way.)
This conference center can drive donations in multiple ways: by improving the quality of projects and ideas, by increasing the points of contact with EA, by becoming an object of media attention, and by provoking reactions within EA to the conference center’s existence and symbolism.
To argue that negative press makes this conference center extremely net negative, it’s not enough to say it’s going to generate bad press. That bad press needs to cause people who were previously going to become substantial donors to EA to reconsider their decision. And that effect needs to have no substantial counterbalance from the other ways the conference center can drive donations.
Beyond this, the conference center can also be net positive EV even if it has a net negative effect on donations. If it cuts out donations in half, but triples the effectiveness of the money we do spend, then it’s paying for itself in utilons.
Beyond this, the conference center can also be net positive EV even if it has a net negative effect on donations. If it cuts out donations in half, but triples the effectiveness of the money we do spend, then it’s paying for itself in utilons.
I think this overstates the case significantly. Beyond specific disagreements with the numbers, Wytham’s influence on the movement is likely more local, while harm to donations is likely more global, meaning that I expect the net effects are unlikely to balance in Wytham’s favour.
I chose my words carefully here, and phrased my comment as a hypothetical pathway by which the conference center could be net positive EV with a negative effect on donations. The likelihood that it is in fact positive EV is an entirely separate question. We don’t have data on that—not even the bad tweets and press we’re getting right now is evidence of the effect on donations. Obviously, we’re never going to have great data and we’ll have to do reasoning under uncertainty. But I don’t think we should update much on twitter. Until someone really digs in and writes the analysis, I’m withholding judgment.
I understand that, but this kind of thing fuels the fire of snark against the EA movement. Tweets like these are a great example of taking this out of context and using it to undermine the entire point of EA. I don’t think it makes sense to spend all our time optimising away opportunities for snark, but in this case it would have been so easily avoided: don’t buy a mansion, or if you do, get the granter buy it and lease it to you for 100 years or something.
I think the optics are particularly bad because english old stone mansions code as particularly luxurious in an american context — the price tag becomes much less important than the pictures of what looks like old school opulence.
Of course this can have a net positive EV, but if you’re holding me to the standard of finding specific future donors we have lost because of this, then I would like to hold you to the standard of pointing out specific future ideas and projects that this enables that will generate positive EV.
As I said in my reply to Neel, I am outlining a hypothetical, not making a claim about what the consequences on donations or ideas will be. I just don’t see very much value coming out of casual comments, although I think it’s natural that people are reacting to all the twitter vitriol (but I encourage everyone to delete twitter). I am keeping an open mind about the abbey, and my comment attempts to explain why.
I have friends, colleagues and family message me about Wytham abbey and it makes me embarrassed
Thanks for sharing this data! I didn’t realise this was such a big EA news story, and this is an update for me in that EA should care more about optics. I’m curious how EA engaged/familiar these people were?
They generally only know about EA through me, or by being tech-adjacent (VC, startup founders etc). No one I know who is an actual EA donor has messaged me about this, but I would consider all of them to be potential donors.
That may be the case with those in your social circle, but several existing EA donors have been vocally upset on the EA subreddit. One question we’ve had to answer there multiple times is whether GiveWell had anything to do with this, because, if so, they would cease their donations there.
People on the EA subreddit are generally more casual than the people that come here to the EA Forum. But comments like this are typical in the last few days:
“I really have trouble believing that someone who has even vaguely brushed up against the insights of EA would buy a mansion. In fact, I could think of few acts that would be more bluntly and vulgarly antithetical to EA.”
These are not anti-EA zealots posting on social media about how this kind of thing disgusts them, using this opportunity as a chance to strike (though some of those also exist). No, these are actual EAs — they may not be as engaged as EA Forum users, but they care enough to join the subreddit, to donate to EA orgs, and to participate in light EA discussions on reddit. They are really not happy about the purchase of Wytham Abbey.
I honestly only really know ~5 people who would consider themselves EAs and none of them tend to stay on top of current events much, they just donate every year to EA orgs. Haven’t heard anything from them, but I am not so embedded in the community. Agree that my perspective is not necessarily typical here but I also can’t tell if your comment is meant to dispute something I said or if you are agreeing?
This is honestly really embarrassing. I’ve read the comments and I don’t want to argue that the economic calculus doesn’t stack up, but the optics here makes this extremely EV negative. Every journalist is looking for material to write about EA since the SBF debacle and this kind of stuff is prime material.
Individual high profile media pieces can significantly reduce donations for years and years, kill startups and organisations and make it harder to find people to partner with due to lowered reputation. I have friends, colleagues and family message me about Wytham abbey and it makes me embarrassed, they are now less likely to donate to causes we care about here. I will not defend this decision to them, regardless of what the economic calculus around conferences/event costs says.
I got into EA for the empathetic and rational approach to doing good and I will continue donating to EA causes and using EA methodology for those same reasons. However, for outsiders, EA is a coherent “movement” that you “support” by donating. This must be taken into consideration when you act under the “EA brand”. This movement is big now and needs to be careful about the way this brand is managed, because, as unsexy as it is, both current and future donations depends on that brand.
What do you think would happen if you responded to a friend’s question with something like this?
“Yes, they purchased this property as a way to save money on event hosting + lodging for attendees. They host a ton of people for events each year, so they think the space will pay for itself over time. It’s also an asset that can be held long-term, instead of money going down the drain on rental costs. A lot of large organizations own centers like this to host events.
“Zero public donations went into this — it was bought with a grant specifically for this project.”
You’re obviously under no obligation to spend time/energy doing this kind of thing! But I’m curious how you think the people messaging you would react.
(I’ve had a lot of conversations with my parents over the years about weird EA things, and I find that it’s good practice for my other comms work.)
*****
I agree that large purchases can be spun in embarrassing ways, but I’m not sure how orgs are meant to respond to this. Does the risk of bad press mean that no one in EA can purchase a building over a certain price, and buildings should be rented instead? Or that buildings can be purchased, but they have to be bland newer buildings instead of fancy-looking older buildings?
I’m a big fan of communicating more clearly about decisions like this, especially when there’s PR risk inherent to the project. But I’m very wary of PR concerns stopping people from making sound decisions about infrastructure.
*****
Also, the “I will not defend this decision to them” point could extend to things like e.g. spending any amount of money on AI alignment, which is also weird and embarrassing to talk about.
No one is obligated to defend AI work, either — I’d be happy to have thousands of people just advocating for malaria funding in their spare time! — but I don’t like when people argue that AI alignment is bad for the EA brand and should thus be deemphasized (I’ve been seeing a lot of this lately in the media).
Thanks for sharing, Aaron! I really appreciate these short explanations. One of my biggest worries was that this would be something difficult to explain to outsiders, but you helped to reduce that worry significantly.
I don’t know whether my explanation will actually hold up! Haven’t had the chance to test it.
But if you use it anywhere, let me know how it goes :-)
This is basically what I said, but thank you for the template answer, it’s good to have one. A few people have argued that it feels like this move shows that EA has reverted to the default path that charitable organisations take where they end up bloated and spending lots of money on ops, HR and lobbying. I’m not saying I believe this, but I think it’s bad for this image to be validated in any way.
Yeah this is my biggest concern. The whole value proposition of EA was to get away from the normal failure modes of charities. If they are falling into the same traps of using shoddy reasoning to justify self serving behaviour that’s a major structural problem, not just a matter of a single decision.
I think it’s probably correct to update in that direction based on this. (Though probably not all the way.)
This conference center can drive donations in multiple ways: by improving the quality of projects and ideas, by increasing the points of contact with EA, by becoming an object of media attention, and by provoking reactions within EA to the conference center’s existence and symbolism.
To argue that negative press makes this conference center extremely net negative, it’s not enough to say it’s going to generate bad press. That bad press needs to cause people who were previously going to become substantial donors to EA to reconsider their decision. And that effect needs to have no substantial counterbalance from the other ways the conference center can drive donations.
Beyond this, the conference center can also be net positive EV even if it has a net negative effect on donations. If it cuts out donations in half, but triples the effectiveness of the money we do spend, then it’s paying for itself in utilons.
I think this overstates the case significantly. Beyond specific disagreements with the numbers, Wytham’s influence on the movement is likely more local, while harm to donations is likely more global, meaning that I expect the net effects are unlikely to balance in Wytham’s favour.
I chose my words carefully here, and phrased my comment as a hypothetical pathway by which the conference center could be net positive EV with a negative effect on donations. The likelihood that it is in fact positive EV is an entirely separate question. We don’t have data on that—not even the bad tweets and press we’re getting right now is evidence of the effect on donations. Obviously, we’re never going to have great data and we’ll have to do reasoning under uncertainty. But I don’t think we should update much on twitter. Until someone really digs in and writes the analysis, I’m withholding judgment.
I understand that, but this kind of thing fuels the fire of snark against the EA movement. Tweets like these are a great example of taking this out of context and using it to undermine the entire point of EA. I don’t think it makes sense to spend all our time optimising away opportunities for snark, but in this case it would have been so easily avoided: don’t buy a mansion, or if you do, get the granter buy it and lease it to you for 100 years or something.
I think the optics are particularly bad because english old stone mansions code as particularly luxurious in an american context — the price tag becomes much less important than the pictures of what looks like old school opulence.
Of course this can have a net positive EV, but if you’re holding me to the standard of finding specific future donors we have lost because of this, then I would like to hold you to the standard of pointing out specific future ideas and projects that this enables that will generate positive EV.
As I said in my reply to Neel, I am outlining a hypothetical, not making a claim about what the consequences on donations or ideas will be. I just don’t see very much value coming out of casual comments, although I think it’s natural that people are reacting to all the twitter vitriol (but I encourage everyone to delete twitter). I am keeping an open mind about the abbey, and my comment attempts to explain why.
Thanks for sharing this data! I didn’t realise this was such a big EA news story, and this is an update for me in that EA should care more about optics. I’m curious how EA engaged/familiar these people were?
They generally only know about EA through me, or by being tech-adjacent (VC, startup founders etc). No one I know who is an actual EA donor has messaged me about this, but I would consider all of them to be potential donors.
That may be the case with those in your social circle, but several existing EA donors have been vocally upset on the EA subreddit. One question we’ve had to answer there multiple times is whether GiveWell had anything to do with this, because, if so, they would cease their donations there.
People on the EA subreddit are generally more casual than the people that come here to the EA Forum. But comments like this are typical in the last few days:
These are not anti-EA zealots posting on social media about how this kind of thing disgusts them, using this opportunity as a chance to strike (though some of those also exist). No, these are actual EAs — they may not be as engaged as EA Forum users, but they care enough to join the subreddit, to donate to EA orgs, and to participate in light EA discussions on reddit. They are really not happy about the purchase of Wytham Abbey.
I honestly only really know ~5 people who would consider themselves EAs and none of them tend to stay on top of current events much, they just donate every year to EA orgs. Haven’t heard anything from them, but I am not so embedded in the community. Agree that my perspective is not necessarily typical here but I also can’t tell if your comment is meant to dispute something I said or if you are agreeing?