CEA is not in charge of the entire EA community. They can’t ban someone from EA events hosted by other people or from moderating EA Facebook groups, and I think it’s unhealthy for one organization to have or be perceived as having that kind of control over a community such as EA. Maybe CEA wants these things, but the post says that these are agreements with CEA or actions Jacy is taking. The only action CEA is specified as taking is “CEA has decided to end its relationship” with Jacy.
I think we should try not to assume the worst when it comes to the content of allegations like this. These are anonymous allegations, we don’t have details, and he’s apologized. CEA might be concerned about a publicity risk, even for relatively minor and resolvable allegations. And there have been complaints about CEA’s decisions in the past, particularly regarding public disassociation like this recent example.
He has himself agreed to step back from the EA community more generally, and to step back from public life in general, which would be an odd move if these were minor misdemeanours. He has admitted that there have been numerous cases of improper conduct. To me, this evidence, combined with the fact that he has been treated so severely by CEA updates me towards the view that the allegations are serious. I suspect there is a lot of legal wrangling and confidentiality concerns here that don’t give us full information, but the signals are not good.
He has himself agreed to step back from the EA community more generally, and to step back from public life in general, which would be an odd move if these were minor misdemeanours.
Not necessarily, in the current cultural milieu.
I think enforcement of this stuff is very uneven and depends a lot on your social circle. Some social circles are underzealous in their enforcement, others overzealous. Given purity spiral dynamics which seem present in the animal rights movement, it seems possible their enforcement is overzealous.
He has himself agreed to step back from the EA community more generally, and to step back from public life in general, which would be an odd move if these were minor misdemeanours.
fwiw he didn’t step back for very long, at least on Twitter.
His next tweet was 10 days after this was posted, and as far as I can tell he never mentioned this episode on his feed. (He has ~30,900 followers on Twitter.)
He has himself agreed to step back from the EA community more generally, and to step back from public life in general, which would be an odd move if these were minor misdemeanours
Not necessarily. CEA or the accusers are presumably compelling this with the threat of greater penalties. But in the current climate, it is possible to credibly threaten someone even if they haven’t committed major misdemeanors (either by making a bigger story out of minor misdemeanors, or with unsubstantiated accusations of major misdemeanors).
He has admitted that there have been numerous cases of improper conduct.
If I were you, I would be very careful about putting words in people’s mouths. He admitted that he was accused of numerous cases of improper conduct. He cannot admit to whether they are true or not because he does not know what the accusations are.
Which he does not know about. It’s a blanket apology to whoever may have been affected. CEA can tell him to say whatever they want him to say; this post is obviously made under pressure and he does not know anything except that someone was uncomfortable when he expressed romantic interest. Aside from the one case on Facebook, he has not faced his accusers and does not know the nature of the charges and evidence against him. It’s impossible to meaningfully admit to something when you don’t know the details and people are pressuring/threatening you to do so.
(Not that I necessarily blame CEA—they are probably acting rationally).
Your interpretation stretches credulity and I can’t help but feel you are being disingenuous. He says “I intend to step back from public life and the activism communities I’ve belonged to and reflect on my mistakes further.” [my emphasis]. This is an admission of culpability, of wrongdoing.
This also makes me concerned about Jacy’s apology. He is apologising for his mistakes while claiming not to know the details of the accusations. If he is apologising for things he knows he has done wrong, then he must know the details of the accusations. If he does not know the details, why is he apologising?
I don’t see that as surprising/concerning. Suppose someone approaches you with (e.g.) “Several people have expressed concerns about your behaviour—they swore us to secrecy about the details, but they seemed serious and credible to us (so much so we intend to take these actions).”
It looks pretty reasonable, if you trust their judgement, to apologise for this even if you lack precise knowledge of what the events in question are.
(Aside: I think having a mechanism which can work in confidence between the relevant parties is valuable for these sorts of difficult situations, and this can get undermined if lots of people start probing for more information and offering commentary.
This doesn’t mean this should never be discussed: these sorts of mechanisms can go wrong, and should be challenged if they do (I can think of an example where a serious failing would not have come to light if the initial ‘behind closed doors’ decision was respected). Yet this seems better done by people who are directly affected by and know the issue in question.)
even if you lack precise knowledge of what the events in question are.
Living one’s own life one would hopefully have some kind of idea. It’s a strange emphasis for an apology to say that he received access to one allegation where he didn’t initially understand why the behavior was received as problematic, only to add that there are other, unseen allegations “and that this other behavior may have been more problematic”. So were some of the things the unseen allegations could refer to problematic in his own opinion (and enough for the response by third parties to seem appropriate)?
(Using a throwaway only to avoid drama, not because I have any extra information.)
I don’t think it does seem reasonable. Putting myself in his shoes, I find it difficult to accept that I would ever make an apology for numerous acts of wrongdoing without knowing what I am meant to have done. I don’t understand why I would trust someone else’s judgement more than my own on matters such as this where I obviously know exactly what happened. As the commenter below notes, he acknowledges that some of his other behaviour on the misdemeanours he doesn’t have the details of was more problematic than some instances he does have information on. This is odd.
If I heard that a lot of people were feeling uncomfortable following interactions with me, I think it’s likely that I would apologize and back off before understanding why they felt that way, and perhaps without even understanding what behaviour was at issue.
I’d trust someone else’s judgement comparably with or more than my own, particularly when there were multiple other someones, because I’m aware of many cases where people were oblivious to the harm their own behaviour was causing (and indeed, I don’t always know how other people feel about the way I interact with them and put a lot of effort into giving them opportunities to tell me). Obviously I’d apply some common sense to accusations that e.g. I knew to be factually wrong.
In the abstract, which of these do you think happens more often?
Someone makes people uncomfortable without being aware that they are doing so. Other people inform them.
Someone doesn’t make anyone feel uncomfortable (above the base rate of awkward social interactions). People erroneously tell them that they are doing so.
Now, the second is probably somewhat more likely than I’ve made it sound, but the first just seems way more ordinary to me. So my outside view is that the most likely reason for people to tell you that you’re making others uncomfortable is that you are actually doing that. You’re entitled to play this off against what you know of the inside view, but I think it would be pretty weird to just dismiss it entirely.
I am not disputing the claim that numerous complaints over the course of my life about my behaviour would be strong evidence that I have behaved badly. I have been defending this throughout this whole thread. The outside view is strong evidence, of course. The question is whether I would know the details of these complaints if I were told of this outside view evidence. The answer for the vast majority of neurotypical people is ‘yes’. I would be able to recall specific cases in which I stepped over the line and I would know how I erred.
Just curious, why does it matter that you know how you erred in your hypothetical stepping over the line? Also, just because you would does not mean that other would or should know.
I can see how a person accused might reflexively take responsibility and do what it takes to express willingness to change. I mean, that’s what we’re taught to do in enlightened communities (animal rights is among the most intense, especially after #ARmetoo). I don’t see Jacy stepping back and soul-searching when told of accusations as clear evidence of his guilt. Especially since the belief that powerful people can unknowingly do immense harm to vulnerable individuals is so common in lefty culture (especially AR) these days. I think it’s easy to gaslight yourself and think you actually might have done something seriously wrong without knowing.
^That said, I think we should take Jacy at his word and not argue with any responsibility he takes. I’m not trying to exonerate him. I’m just saying expressing remorse at the possibility of unintentional wrongdoing is not evidence of guilt imo. You don’t know until it happens, but I can see myself reacting this way if someone came at me with a serious accusation that made me feel like a bad person. [Edit: If I was unsure whether I’d done any wrongdoing,] I’d probably instantly want to betray myself rather than face people thinking I was guilty and unremorseful.
I don’t think it is true that the above statement is not evidence of guilt. Firstly, you say yourself that we should take Jacy at his word, and he explicitly apologises for mistakes in the above and admits wrongdoing. Secondly, clearly his statement and the wider evidence is evidence of guilt in the sense that it is an update (a very large one) in favour of the proposition (1) that he has committed wrongdoing. This is true even if you think, as many commenters here seem to, that there is some probability that: (2) this is a kangaroo court and this is a coerced confession; or (3) that he’s apologising for things out of deference to the judgement of CEA, but he does not actually judge himself to have done anything wrong and therefore that the statement is, despite appearances, not an admission of guilt. Clearly, everyone should massively increase the probability of (1) given the evidence, very plausibly well past 50%. FWIW, in my personal view (2) and (3) are extremely unlikely, and I am surprised to see them get such support here.
I cannot identify with your hypothetical. If someone came to me and said “you have done something wrong, please apologise”, I definitely would not apologise and withdraw from public life without knowing what I was meant to have done. If I thought I had not done anything wrong, I would not apologise. And this is a clear case in which I would have first-person authority on whether I did anything wrong. The norm of taking responsibility regardless of whether you know you did anything wrong seems very bad, and definitely not enlightened. Consider the implications for criminal law—does this imply that all people accused should submit guilty pleas merely because they have been accused?
And this is a clear case in which I would have first-person authority on whether I did anything wrong.
I think this is the main point of disagreement here. Generally when you make sexual or romantic advances on someone and those advances make them uncomfortable, you’re often not aware of the effect that you’re having (and they may not feel safe telling you), so you’re not the authority on whether you did something wrong.
Which is not to say that you’re guilty because they accused you! It’s possible to behave perfectly reasonably and for people around you to get upset, even to blame you for it. In that scenario you would not be guilty of doing anything wrong necessarily. But more often it looks like this:
someone does something inappropriate without realizing it,
impartial observers agree, having heard the facts, that it was inappropriate,
it seems clearly-enough inappropriate that the offender had a moral duty to identify it as such in advance and not do it.
Then they need to apologize and do what’s necessary to prevent it happening again, including withdrawing from the community if necessary.
I agree that the could be the case once in a person’s life for a single mild misdemeanour. But the reference class here is actions sufficient to make numerous individuals complain to the overall organisation leading a movement you are a part of, as well as additional evidence of people complaining to your university about you earlier in your life. I don’t think the vast majority of people would fail to know what they had done wrong in these cases.
Just to remark on the “criminal law” point – I think it’s appropriate to apply a different, and laxer, standard here than we do for criminal law, because:
the penalties are not criminal penalties, and in particular do not deprive anyone of anything they have a right to, like their property or freedom – CEA are free to exclude anyone from EAG who in their best judgement would make it a worse event to attend,
we don’t have access to the kinds of evidence or evidence-gathering resources that criminal courts do, so realistically it’s pretty likely that in most cases of misconduct or abuse we won’t have criminal-standard evidence that it happened, and we’ll have to either act despite that or never act at all. Some would defend never acting at all, I’m sure (or acting in only the most clear-cut cases), but I don’t think it’s the mainstream view.
“Consider the implications for criminal law—does this imply that all people accused should submit guilty pleas merely because they have been accused?”
Good example, actually, because false confessions are a thing. The fact that someone would confess or apologize alone does not entail guilt. You may not do it (or think you would), but false confessions happen because it’s easy to imagine you did something wrong when people you trust/fear are telling you you did. I’m sure being a scrupulous and ethical person steeped in social justice ideas about being naturally ignorant of the impact of your actions doesn’t help.
I believe we should respect what responsibility he takes above. I’m not trying to say he didn’t do something wrong (seems very possible as well) but I think trying to discern that from this formal apology is not really possible. Saying that you would never apologize like this if you were innocent just isn’t real evidence, since many people have.
You don’t know until it happens, but I can see myself reacting this way if someone came at me with a serious accusation that made me feel like a bad person. [Edit: If I was unsure whether I’d done any wrongdoing,] I’d probably instantly want to betray myself rather than face people thinking I was guilty and unremorseful.
But in that state of mind, your apology would sound extremely apologetic rather than very calculated? If the apology sounds calculated (edit: in the sense that many people discuss whether it even is an admission of guilt at all), it’s a sign that the person (edit: isn’t in the turmoil of gaslighting themselves anymore and) either thinks they have high integrity, or they are comfortable with sneakiness. Unfortunately the two are going to look very similar.
I think this apology sounds a lot like the template of a dignified apology that a lot of us have in our heads. Take as much responsibility as you can, don’t shrink from the accusations or blame anyone else. He speaks several times of the restorative process, and part of that is offering apologies along these lines. There are many classes you can take and books you can read (I’ve read some), popular in Jacy’s communities, on how to give these apologies. He may well have composed it alongside CEA. Why would you think it should sound emotional, like he wrote it the moment he learned of the reprimand?
It doesn’t mean much, but my first reaction was that it seemed like he was overreacting and trying to rise above by taking a lot of responsibility. I really don’t know, though. I think all of our speculation on the basis of a formal apology is unlikely to clarify anything.
I think it’s easy to gaslight yourself and think you actually might have done something seriously wrong without knowing.
True. What’s unfortunate is that the type of person who knowingly does inappropriate things (without any sense of remorse) is guaranteed to use what you say as a phony excuse. I’m not alleging that the sentiment expressed in the apology was knowingly insincere; I’m merely pointing out that this gives you zero Bayesian evidence to distinguish two very different kinds of situations.
The fact that CEA has not taken steps to clear up the ambiguities (as other commenters have pointed out) is some evidence in favor of the hypothesis that “today’s climate makes things look worse than they are”. But there are plausible alternatives for why CEA isn’t commenting on that.
If you wanted to write an apology that assures CEA that things were concluding properly, while also trying to preserve the maximum of plausible deniability for any morally (more) serious allegations, how would you write it when the truth is in fact relatively benign? And how would you write it when the truth was not so benign?
Okay, sorry for pressing the point. In my view this didn’t quite address what I wanted to say but did not say well. You say A, I argue that it’s either B or C, then you say we don’t know whether it’s B or C. Fine with me! What I wanted to convey is that we should at least point out that C is a serious option, and I think the EA community could become less naive with these things because that’s what creates an environment where sneakiness doesn’t work anymore. The way I meant this, B or C are not about what the truth is, but what Jacy’s approach to facing allegations is. And I agree with your other comment that it could be either option.
I’m not sure what you mean by A, B, and C. Just to be clear, all I’m saying is that the only thing that this apology has ruled out is “Jacy vehemently denies any possibility of wrongdoing and would not cooperate with CEA’s decision regarding him.” Other than that, I feel it is compatible with most scenarios of his guilt/innocence and of his reaction to being accused.
The question is about probabilities of guilt/innocence. If you have multiple people accuse you of sexual or non-sexual harassment over the course of at least 7 years in different communities, then you are either extremely unlucky or you have actually harassed people. He also admits guilt
If he is apologising for things he knows he has done wrong, then he must know the details of the accusations
He wrote “I appreciate that there were other interactions that made people uncomfortable and where details have not been shared with me.” You are suggesting that he lied while being supervised by the CEA who did this whole thing? That wouldn’t make any sense. CEA practically wrote this post.
If he does not know the details, why is he apologising?
Because if he doesn’t then CEA and/or other actors will punish him more severely.
I’m saying he must have some idea of what the allegations are otherwise it wouldn’t make sense for him to apologise.
To be clear is your view is that this is likely or with some non-negligible probability, not a real apology, and he is not actually acknowledging wrongdoing?
I’m saying he must have some idea of what the allegations are otherwise it wouldn’t make sense for him to apologise.
Why? It makes sense for him to apologize as long as CEA demands that he apologize.
To be clear is your view is that this is likely or with some non-negligible probability, not a real apology, and he is not actually acknowledging wrongdoing?
There are no Real Apologies, it is naive to think otherwise and toxic to demand otherwise. Of course he is acknowledging wrongdoing, and he is acknowledging wrongdoing because he is being pressured to acknowledge wrongdoing. How much wrongdoing actually happened is largely unknown to us.
There are no Real Apologies, it is naive to think otherwise and toxic to demand otherwise. Of course he is acknowledging wrongdoing, and he is acknowledging wrongdoing because he is being pressured to acknowledge wrongdoing.
What are you talking about? There’s a clear difference between apologizing because one sincerely believes one acted wrongly, and apologizing only because one thinks the consequences will be graver if one fails to apologize. I am puzzled by your apparent failure to recognize this difference.
CEA is not in charge of the entire EA community. They can’t ban someone from EA events hosted by other people or from moderating EA Facebook groups, and I think it’s unhealthy for one organization to have or be perceived as having that kind of control over a community such as EA. Maybe CEA wants these things, but the post says that these are agreements with CEA or actions Jacy is taking. The only action CEA is specified as taking is “CEA has decided to end its relationship” with Jacy.
I think we should try not to assume the worst when it comes to the content of allegations like this. These are anonymous allegations, we don’t have details, and he’s apologized. CEA might be concerned about a publicity risk, even for relatively minor and resolvable allegations. And there have been complaints about CEA’s decisions in the past, particularly regarding public disassociation like this recent example.
He has himself agreed to step back from the EA community more generally, and to step back from public life in general, which would be an odd move if these were minor misdemeanours. He has admitted that there have been numerous cases of improper conduct. To me, this evidence, combined with the fact that he has been treated so severely by CEA updates me towards the view that the allegations are serious. I suspect there is a lot of legal wrangling and confidentiality concerns here that don’t give us full information, but the signals are not good.
Not necessarily, in the current cultural milieu.
I think enforcement of this stuff is very uneven and depends a lot on your social circle. Some social circles are underzealous in their enforcement, others overzealous. Given purity spiral dynamics which seem present in the animal rights movement, it seems possible their enforcement is overzealous.
[Deleted]
fwiw he didn’t step back for very long, at least on Twitter.
His next tweet was 10 days after this was posted, and as far as I can tell he never mentioned this episode on his feed. (He has ~30,900 followers on Twitter.)
Not necessarily. CEA or the accusers are presumably compelling this with the threat of greater penalties. But in the current climate, it is possible to credibly threaten someone even if they haven’t committed major misdemeanors (either by making a bigger story out of minor misdemeanors, or with unsubstantiated accusations of major misdemeanors).
If I were you, I would be very careful about putting words in people’s mouths. He admitted that he was accused of numerous cases of improper conduct. He cannot admit to whether they are true or not because he does not know what the accusations are.
The post is called ‘apology’ and he explicitly apologises for numerous cases of improper conduct
Which he does not know about. It’s a blanket apology to whoever may have been affected. CEA can tell him to say whatever they want him to say; this post is obviously made under pressure and he does not know anything except that someone was uncomfortable when he expressed romantic interest. Aside from the one case on Facebook, he has not faced his accusers and does not know the nature of the charges and evidence against him. It’s impossible to meaningfully admit to something when you don’t know the details and people are pressuring/threatening you to do so.
(Not that I necessarily blame CEA—they are probably acting rationally).
Your interpretation stretches credulity and I can’t help but feel you are being disingenuous. He says “I intend to step back from public life and the activism communities I’ve belonged to and reflect on my mistakes further.” [my emphasis]. This is an admission of culpability, of wrongdoing.
This also makes me concerned about Jacy’s apology. He is apologising for his mistakes while claiming not to know the details of the accusations. If he is apologising for things he knows he has done wrong, then he must know the details of the accusations. If he does not know the details, why is he apologising?
I don’t see that as surprising/concerning. Suppose someone approaches you with (e.g.) “Several people have expressed concerns about your behaviour—they swore us to secrecy about the details, but they seemed serious and credible to us (so much so we intend to take these actions).”
It looks pretty reasonable, if you trust their judgement, to apologise for this even if you lack precise knowledge of what the events in question are.
(Aside: I think having a mechanism which can work in confidence between the relevant parties is valuable for these sorts of difficult situations, and this can get undermined if lots of people start probing for more information and offering commentary.
This doesn’t mean this should never be discussed: these sorts of mechanisms can go wrong, and should be challenged if they do (I can think of an example where a serious failing would not have come to light if the initial ‘behind closed doors’ decision was respected). Yet this seems better done by people who are directly affected by and know the issue in question.)
Living one’s own life one would hopefully have some kind of idea. It’s a strange emphasis for an apology to say that he received access to one allegation where he didn’t initially understand why the behavior was received as problematic, only to add that there are other, unseen allegations “and that this other behavior may have been more problematic”. So were some of the things the unseen allegations could refer to problematic in his own opinion (and enough for the response by third parties to seem appropriate)?
(Using a throwaway only to avoid drama, not because I have any extra information.)
I don’t think it does seem reasonable. Putting myself in his shoes, I find it difficult to accept that I would ever make an apology for numerous acts of wrongdoing without knowing what I am meant to have done. I don’t understand why I would trust someone else’s judgement more than my own on matters such as this where I obviously know exactly what happened. As the commenter below notes, he acknowledges that some of his other behaviour on the misdemeanours he doesn’t have the details of was more problematic than some instances he does have information on. This is odd.
If I heard that a lot of people were feeling uncomfortable following interactions with me, I think it’s likely that I would apologize and back off before understanding why they felt that way, and perhaps without even understanding what behaviour was at issue.
I’d trust someone else’s judgement comparably with or more than my own, particularly when there were multiple other someones, because I’m aware of many cases where people were oblivious to the harm their own behaviour was causing (and indeed, I don’t always know how other people feel about the way I interact with them and put a lot of effort into giving them opportunities to tell me). Obviously I’d apply some common sense to accusations that e.g. I knew to be factually wrong.
In the abstract, which of these do you think happens more often?
Someone makes people uncomfortable without being aware that they are doing so. Other people inform them.
Someone doesn’t make anyone feel uncomfortable (above the base rate of awkward social interactions). People erroneously tell them that they are doing so.
Now, the second is probably somewhat more likely than I’ve made it sound, but the first just seems way more ordinary to me. So my outside view is that the most likely reason for people to tell you that you’re making others uncomfortable is that you are actually doing that. You’re entitled to play this off against what you know of the inside view, but I think it would be pretty weird to just dismiss it entirely.
I am not disputing the claim that numerous complaints over the course of my life about my behaviour would be strong evidence that I have behaved badly. I have been defending this throughout this whole thread. The outside view is strong evidence, of course. The question is whether I would know the details of these complaints if I were told of this outside view evidence. The answer for the vast majority of neurotypical people is ‘yes’. I would be able to recall specific cases in which I stepped over the line and I would know how I erred.
Just curious, why does it matter that you know how you erred in your hypothetical stepping over the line? Also, just because you would does not mean that other would or should know.
I can see how a person accused might reflexively take responsibility and do what it takes to express willingness to change. I mean, that’s what we’re taught to do in enlightened communities (animal rights is among the most intense, especially after #ARmetoo). I don’t see Jacy stepping back and soul-searching when told of accusations as clear evidence of his guilt. Especially since the belief that powerful people can unknowingly do immense harm to vulnerable individuals is so common in lefty culture (especially AR) these days. I think it’s easy to gaslight yourself and think you actually might have done something seriously wrong without knowing.
^That said, I think we should take Jacy at his word and not argue with any responsibility he takes. I’m not trying to exonerate him. I’m just saying expressing remorse at the possibility of unintentional wrongdoing is not evidence of guilt imo. You don’t know until it happens, but I can see myself reacting this way if someone came at me with a serious accusation that made me feel like a bad person. [Edit: If I was unsure whether I’d done any wrongdoing,] I’d probably instantly want to betray myself rather than face people thinking I was guilty and unremorseful.
I don’t think it is true that the above statement is not evidence of guilt. Firstly, you say yourself that we should take Jacy at his word, and he explicitly apologises for mistakes in the above and admits wrongdoing. Secondly, clearly his statement and the wider evidence is evidence of guilt in the sense that it is an update (a very large one) in favour of the proposition (1) that he has committed wrongdoing. This is true even if you think, as many commenters here seem to, that there is some probability that: (2) this is a kangaroo court and this is a coerced confession; or (3) that he’s apologising for things out of deference to the judgement of CEA, but he does not actually judge himself to have done anything wrong and therefore that the statement is, despite appearances, not an admission of guilt. Clearly, everyone should massively increase the probability of (1) given the evidence, very plausibly well past 50%. FWIW, in my personal view (2) and (3) are extremely unlikely, and I am surprised to see them get such support here.
I cannot identify with your hypothetical. If someone came to me and said “you have done something wrong, please apologise”, I definitely would not apologise and withdraw from public life without knowing what I was meant to have done. If I thought I had not done anything wrong, I would not apologise. And this is a clear case in which I would have first-person authority on whether I did anything wrong. The norm of taking responsibility regardless of whether you know you did anything wrong seems very bad, and definitely not enlightened. Consider the implications for criminal law—does this imply that all people accused should submit guilty pleas merely because they have been accused?
I think this is the main point of disagreement here. Generally when you make sexual or romantic advances on someone and those advances make them uncomfortable, you’re often not aware of the effect that you’re having (and they may not feel safe telling you), so you’re not the authority on whether you did something wrong.
Which is not to say that you’re guilty because they accused you! It’s possible to behave perfectly reasonably and for people around you to get upset, even to blame you for it. In that scenario you would not be guilty of doing anything wrong necessarily. But more often it looks like this:
someone does something inappropriate without realizing it,
impartial observers agree, having heard the facts, that it was inappropriate,
it seems clearly-enough inappropriate that the offender had a moral duty to identify it as such in advance and not do it.
Then they need to apologize and do what’s necessary to prevent it happening again, including withdrawing from the community if necessary.
I agree that the could be the case once in a person’s life for a single mild misdemeanour. But the reference class here is actions sufficient to make numerous individuals complain to the overall organisation leading a movement you are a part of, as well as additional evidence of people complaining to your university about you earlier in your life. I don’t think the vast majority of people would fail to know what they had done wrong in these cases.
Just to remark on the “criminal law” point – I think it’s appropriate to apply a different, and laxer, standard here than we do for criminal law, because:
the penalties are not criminal penalties, and in particular do not deprive anyone of anything they have a right to, like their property or freedom – CEA are free to exclude anyone from EAG who in their best judgement would make it a worse event to attend,
we don’t have access to the kinds of evidence or evidence-gathering resources that criminal courts do, so realistically it’s pretty likely that in most cases of misconduct or abuse we won’t have criminal-standard evidence that it happened, and we’ll have to either act despite that or never act at all. Some would defend never acting at all, I’m sure (or acting in only the most clear-cut cases), but I don’t think it’s the mainstream view.
.
“Consider the implications for criminal law—does this imply that all people accused should submit guilty pleas merely because they have been accused?”
Good example, actually, because false confessions are a thing. The fact that someone would confess or apologize alone does not entail guilt. You may not do it (or think you would), but false confessions happen because it’s easy to imagine you did something wrong when people you trust/fear are telling you you did. I’m sure being a scrupulous and ethical person steeped in social justice ideas about being naturally ignorant of the impact of your actions doesn’t help.
I believe we should respect what responsibility he takes above. I’m not trying to say he didn’t do something wrong (seems very possible as well) but I think trying to discern that from this formal apology is not really possible. Saying that you would never apologize like this if you were innocent just isn’t real evidence, since many people have.
.
But in that state of mind, your apology would sound extremely apologetic rather than very calculated? If the apology sounds calculated (edit: in the sense that many people discuss whether it even is an admission of guilt at all), it’s a sign that the person (edit: isn’t in the turmoil of gaslighting themselves anymore and) either thinks they have high integrity, or they are comfortable with sneakiness. Unfortunately the two are going to look very similar.
I think this apology sounds a lot like the template of a dignified apology that a lot of us have in our heads. Take as much responsibility as you can, don’t shrink from the accusations or blame anyone else. He speaks several times of the restorative process, and part of that is offering apologies along these lines. There are many classes you can take and books you can read (I’ve read some), popular in Jacy’s communities, on how to give these apologies. He may well have composed it alongside CEA. Why would you think it should sound emotional, like he wrote it the moment he learned of the reprimand?
It doesn’t mean much, but my first reaction was that it seemed like he was overreacting and trying to rise above by taking a lot of responsibility. I really don’t know, though. I think all of our speculation on the basis of a formal apology is unlikely to clarify anything.
True. What’s unfortunate is that the type of person who knowingly does inappropriate things (without any sense of remorse) is guaranteed to use what you say as a phony excuse. I’m not alleging that the sentiment expressed in the apology was knowingly insincere; I’m merely pointing out that this gives you zero Bayesian evidence to distinguish two very different kinds of situations.
The fact that CEA has not taken steps to clear up the ambiguities (as other commenters have pointed out) is some evidence in favor of the hypothesis that “today’s climate makes things look worse than they are”. But there are plausible alternatives for why CEA isn’t commenting on that.
If you wanted to write an apology that assures CEA that things were concluding properly, while also trying to preserve the maximum of plausible deniability for any morally (more) serious allegations, how would you write it when the truth is in fact relatively benign? And how would you write it when the truth was not so benign?
I think we just don’t know and we’re probably not going to get any more blood out of this turnip.
Okay, sorry for pressing the point. In my view this didn’t quite address what I wanted to say but did not say well. You say A, I argue that it’s either B or C, then you say we don’t know whether it’s B or C. Fine with me! What I wanted to convey is that we should at least point out that C is a serious option, and I think the EA community could become less naive with these things because that’s what creates an environment where sneakiness doesn’t work anymore. The way I meant this, B or C are not about what the truth is, but what Jacy’s approach to facing allegations is. And I agree with your other comment that it could be either option.
I’m not sure what you mean by A, B, and C. Just to be clear, all I’m saying is that the only thing that this apology has ruled out is “Jacy vehemently denies any possibility of wrongdoing and would not cooperate with CEA’s decision regarding him.” Other than that, I feel it is compatible with most scenarios of his guilt/innocence and of his reaction to being accused.
The question is about probabilities of guilt/innocence. If you have multiple people accuse you of sexual or non-sexual harassment over the course of at least 7 years in different communities, then you are either extremely unlucky or you have actually harassed people. He also admits guilt
“I’m merely pointing out that this gives you zero Bayesian evidence to distinguish two very different kinds of situations.”
This is all I was trying to point out, too. We know he’s cooperating with CEA and accepting a reprimand. I think that’s all this apology tells us.
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I stand by it.
He wrote “I appreciate that there were other interactions that made people uncomfortable and where details have not been shared with me.” You are suggesting that he lied while being supervised by the CEA who did this whole thing? That wouldn’t make any sense. CEA practically wrote this post.
Because if he doesn’t then CEA and/or other actors will punish him more severely.
I’m saying he must have some idea of what the allegations are otherwise it wouldn’t make sense for him to apologise.
To be clear is your view is that this is likely or with some non-negligible probability, not a real apology, and he is not actually acknowledging wrongdoing?
Why? It makes sense for him to apologize as long as CEA demands that he apologize.
There are no Real Apologies, it is naive to think otherwise and toxic to demand otherwise. Of course he is acknowledging wrongdoing, and he is acknowledging wrongdoing because he is being pressured to acknowledge wrongdoing. How much wrongdoing actually happened is largely unknown to us.
What are you talking about? There’s a clear difference between apologizing because one sincerely believes one acted wrongly, and apologizing only because one thinks the consequences will be graver if one fails to apologize. I am puzzled by your apparent failure to recognize this difference.
Nvm.
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