Co-founder of Shrimp Welfare Project, which aims to reduce the suffering of billions of farmed shrimps
Aaron Boddyđ¸
Karma: 1,882
Absolutelyâas Iâve hopefully made clear above, shrimp paste is one of the biggest areas in the shrimp welfare space that we think another project could have an impact!
There are a couple of reasons why SWP is not working on it:
The contexts are very different
Our current focus projects all operate within the context of: whiteleg shrimps, in aquaculture, being globally exported/âimported.
Shrimp paste on the other hand, is likely to be different on all counts: Japonicus shrimps, Wild-capture fisheries, domestic Southeast Asia/âSouthern China markets
We essentially see this as requiring a different organisation with specialised knowledge
We decided not to abandon whiteleg shrimps altogether to instead set up a âShrimp Paste Projectâ
We felt much more sure that whiteleg shrimps would be tractable, and tractability was very important early on, as there were a lot of unknowns
We think the world needs both a Shrimp Welfare Project and a Shrimp Paste Project (and likely more!), so fully pivoting from one to form the other we didnât think would make sense
We think our focus plays well to the co-founderâs (and now the wider teams) strengthsâwhereas a shrimp paste org would likely benefit from co-founders with different skills and deeper cultural insights
As a final note, I think itâs worth mentioning that Rethink Prioritiesâ initial research on shrimp welfare informed the Charity Entrepreneurship team and led to our creation. Weâre super thankful to both and Iâm really hopeful that RPâs latest work leads to similar outcomes :)
Hey Angelinaâthank you so much for your kind words! Itâs really heartwarming to see your enthusiasm and interest in our work :)
Shrimp Size
The corporate producers weâre working with supply âheadless peeled shrimpsâ (mainly to Northern Europe) which tend to be smaller on average for this marketThis is different for example to âhead on, shell on shrimpsâ, which are typically larger (and are mainly supplied to Asia and Southern Europe)
As we sign more commitments globally, weâll likely want to supply ranges per producer depending on the market they supply
Adjusting for predicted follow-through
We decided not to discount our estimates in this first model because weâre not sure how different this will look in practice between other types of corporate commitments and ours (i.e. comparing âhens & cage-freeâ, to âshrimps & stunnersâ)The contexts seem different enough (producers, working in aquaculture, who are being bought equipment) that we donât think we can reasonably predict how this will translate
Our plan is that hopefully in a ~yearâs time we will have had some stunners in operation for long enough that we can accurately report on adherence rates, and update our numbers
Agreedâfor me the biggest piece of the puzzle I donât currently understand is the cultural experience⌠Our volunteer writing the report is from the Philippines, so although we want the report to be global, weâre hoping to have a sort of case study (maybe conduct a few interviews or something) on the Philippines to add some on-the-ground context that would be difficult to get from desk-based research alone.
Also, someone from EA Philippines also once told me that shrimp paste is often fed to whale sharks, in order to keep them present in the waters year-round to support the whale shark tourism industry, and Iâm not sure how many similar examples of complicating factors like this there are...
Hi MHR! Thanks for your kind words, weâre really excited about entering this next phase :)
Regarding your questions:
The calculation is the same, but the number weâre reporting is different, this is due to a few factors:
~4,000/â$/âyear is the actual cost-effectiveness of our stunners program to date, not including overheads other than the cost of the stunners themselves (1B /â $247.5K)
~1,500/â$/âyear in contrast, is the minimum cost-effectiveness of our stunners program going forward, which we commit to purchasing if the producer commits to stunning a minimum of 100M shrimps per year (100M /â $65,000 = ~1,500).
Historically producers have committed to more than that, so we tend to say 1,500+ /â$/âyear, because the actual number can fluctuate depending on the producer commitment
And just for further clarity, SWPâs overall cost-effectiveness (~1,300/â$/âyear) is the cost-effectiveness of our stunners program to date while also factoring in SWPâs overheads to date (1B /â ($525K+$247.5K))
Itâs worth noting that in future our stunners program will likely become the majority of our budget (rather than overheads), so itâs likely SWPâs overall cost-effectiveness will increase as a result
Most of these numbers can also be seen in the Guesstimate model (except how we arrived at the ~1,500, which is instead in the stunners funding proposal)
By the way, the Guesstimate model builds on our original BOTEC spreadsheet, so the 4,000 number can also be seen in Guesstimate, as well as how that changes to 1,300 once the overheads are factored in
UoC stands for âUnit of Certificationâ, basically just whatever is being certified by ASC, typically the farm itself (Iâve updated the linked doc now to clarify thatâthanks for spotting our jargon!)
There is, but unfortunately itâs only available to users with a login (i.e. those who bought a ticket) - weâll email to ask if weâre allowed to download and share it
Regarding shrimp pasteâthis is definitely something Iâd be most excited for someone to work on, but as I understand it there currently are quite a number of shrimp paste alternatives on the marketâboth in terms of just general vegan substitutes, but also explicitly vegan shrimp paste
I donât know how widely available those alternatives are where shrimp paste is consumed the most, but my current sense is that the solution is likely more along the lines of cultural change, rather than technical innovation (though Iâm sure a mix of the two would help)
Though Iâm not super confident in this, and hopefully weâll be able to share more insights once our volunteer has finished the report :)
Thanks very much for this write-up MHR! Weâve recently published a âtwo-year updateâ post on the Forum, and wanted to reflect on some considerations we think most likely affect the Cost-Effectiveness of this project. Rather than including the below in that post, we thought it made sense to continue the discussion that had already started here.
Considerations around the âPain-Trackâ for this intervention, for example:
The intervention targets acute rather than chronic suffering. In some Pain-Tracks, Time spent suffering can overwhelmingly dominate the calculation of suffering (though this also depends on the relative intensity of the chronic suffering compared to the acute suffering).
Similarly, how you weigh the relative suffering of Annoying, Hurtful, Disabling, and Excruciating pains can be a deciding factor. Itâs possible that these are within orders of magnitude of each other, but itâs also possible to view âExcruciatingâ pain as being infinitely worse than other types of pain (and similarly to Time as a factor, if Excruciating pain is weighted high enough, then any time in this state can end up dominating the overall calculation for the Pain-Track).
The relative welfare range of shrimpsâin particular, whether the undiluted experience model of welfare is correct or notâis another consideration that can dominate cost-effectiveness calculations (largely because the number of shrimps used and killed for food is so large),
The likelihood that we accelerate the adoption of humane slaughter practicesâboth in terms of the shorter term goal of producers buying further stunners themselves, and the longer-term goal of electrical stunning becoming the norm in the industry.
For example, we have one producer who is committed to stunning 100M shrimps, which represents 8% of their shrimps. If the âpilotâ is successful, they will likely buy further stunners to stun most (if not all) of their shrimps. This would mean our investment of $65,000 would be the first domino leading to ~1.25B shrimps being stunned per year.
Additionally, once a buyer has seen that itâs possible for their suppliers to implement stunners, they can be empowered to require that all of their suppliers stun their shrimps (or otherwise source from suppliers who already stun).
Finally, many certifiers/âpolicymakers are unwilling to require the industry to do things until it has been relatively established. Weâre unsure what the timelines of work like this might be, but believe that by counterfactually introducing stunners to the industry earlier than they would have been, it could lead to widespread adoption being accelerated by a number of years.
Any potential âimpact ceilingâ we might hit with buying stunnersâif the pool of producers large enough to stun a minimum of 100M shrimps and willing to take up our offer of a stunner is smaller than we currently estimate, then this could limit the potential scale of impact. Likewise, the potential pool could be larger than we realise, for example, we may find a number of smaller producers who want to take a stunner but canât commit to 100M shrimps, in which case we could offer to pro-rata our contribution, and work with a larger pool of producers at a similar cost-effectiveness.
Finally, we see hard-to-quantify value in whether this intervention helps to diversify interventions in the animal welfare space. Both the decision to focus on shrimps, and to purchase equipment for the industry, are both somewhat novel âbetsâ that seem to have paid off. We hope that this is encouraging for the movement more broadly to continue to invest in exploratory work in the space.
Really enjoyed thisâthanks for sharing!
Canât wait to hear/âsee the full musical when youâre finished :)
Can I ask what your idea for an EA board game was? Iâve recently started designing board games as a hobby and I was thinking about trying to do an EA one :)
Hey Eric, this comment thread popped into my head today :) Are you able to share the list of relevant-to-EA video and board games at this time? Iâm just super curious to know what they are and try some out!
Hi allâone of the co-founders of Shrimp Welfare Project (and a co-author of this report) here :)
Unfortunately, Lucas, our Research Lead (and primary author of this report), will be leaving the team at the end of April. We are sad to see him go and are thankful for all the great work he has done within Shrimp Welfare Project.
We are therefore looking for a new Research Lead to take over from April, before Lucas leaves, so that he can pass on all relevant information! If you are interested, you can find out more here. Applications can be submitted until February 17!
One of the co-founders from Shrimp Welfare Project here :)
I agreeâit was a real priority for us to not have a curled shrimp in our logo (which was tricky!) for this reason. And youâre right, most shrimps that are farmed are whiteish or brownish (though there are over 2,000 species of shrimps, and some are very colourful!). Finally, as an alternative to the âgo veganâ message that could accompany it, you could also explore an âexpanding the moral circleâ message (though as itâs been noted previously with the âdo good betterâ message, that this could come off as preachy without context).
Iâd be happy to share the shrimp we used in our logo if you wanted to use that instead, though I donât want this to seem like weâre pitching Shrimp Welfare Project specifically rather than shrimp welfare in general :)
Absolutely, go for it :)
Hey there!
Iâve only recently finished the book, so donât have much advice regarding putting the principles into practice unfortunately⌠though hopefully someone else does and can comment here too :)
A lot of the Principles relate to managing a bigger organisation than mine⌠Having said that I am trying to implement more robust decision tracking etc. in my org based on the ideas of thinking of your organisation as an optimisation âmachineâ to achieve a goal (and some of the suggestions he has in the book of how to do that)
The reason I pulled this out as a list though is that I find it really valuable just being able to see the key 20 principles as the section headers, then I can dig down into the sub-principles if I need a reminder
Happy to chat more but please donât think of me as the Principles guru, just someone who wanted an on-the-go reference/ârefresher :)
No problem, these are great questions!
And yes thatâs true, each stakeholder in the shrimp supply chain is usually driven by the demands of the next link (i.e. farmerâprocessorâimporterâdistributorâconsumer). So when it comes down to it, often the distributor (retailer/ârestaurant etc.) can only make a change if they have reason to believe that the public is demanding change...
Though we are anticipating that we can make lots of progress before we reach public awareness as our limiting factor (the scale is just so huge!).
And we expect that in the meantime, progress towards public awareness of aquatic animal suffering will increase significantly thanks to the work of other NGOs (such as all the great NGOs in the Aquatic Animal Alliance ! [1])
There are lots of overlaps between welfare and sustainability, with a great overview provided by the Aquatic Life Institute [1] (weâre hoping to publish a shrimp-focused look at the overlap of sustainability and welfare on our website soon!)
Our main concern is with super-intensive systems, in which many of these welfare issues are managed very well, but there are very high stocking densities. In less intensive systems, lower stocking densities can reduce stress and susceptibility to diseases, so we have a pretty good case for asking that theyâre reduced as part of our Ask. But in high-intensive systems, water quality and risk of disease are managed well, so stocking densities can be very highâand the overlap of welfare and sustainability falls down. In this case, weâre hoping that being able to provide the farmers with access to a higher-welfare market becomes our main lever for justifying an ask to reduce stocking densities.
Youâve hit the nail on the head! The idea on the face of it seems so unusual, but once I talk through the scale, neglectedness and tractability of the problem, Iâve yet to find anyone who isnât convinced by it (except maybe my parents...)
I have been slightly bowled over by the number of people who have âgot itâ, but as you say, this is largely because Iâm talking to EAs. But even with non-EAs, describing welfare issues such as eyestalk ablation, dying of disease or suffocating due to lack of oxygen seems to be pretty well understood and hasnât come across as controversial...
Weâre really excited to see what lies ahead for us, and canât wait to see the progress you make on insect welfare! :)
Great questions!
Advocacy: Youâre absolutely right, thatâs been our impressions of corporate advocacy work too and weâre currently not expecting to drum up grassroots campaigns, or do any significant work on public awareness. Our expectation as it stands is that we can frame the benefits of shrimp welfare as a lever for sustainability. The Seafood Task Force has managed to make shrimp supply chain improvements driven by retail largely without the buy-in of consumers [1]. In addition, we hope to enable corporations to be leaders in this area, as consumer awareness of aquatic welfare increases (i.e. due to Seaspiracy etc.).
Production: Itâs pretty concentrated on a country level in terms of distribution [2]. In South-East Asia there are often many smaller farmers, but they work with agents who deliver the shrimps to a centralised processing plant for export [3]. Our understanding of importing at a company level is that there are a few key importers that dominate the market [4].
I loved watching this talk, thanks for sharing!
It would be great to talk further about this idea (though based on your talk, it would seem you have already given way more thought to it than I have)
I love this!
I think for me a real barrier is the fact that I barrel ahead with the ideas too quickly⌠like I want to jump straight in at the deep-end with âwe should think of all lives as equally important and we should be trying to consider the ways our donation can go farthestââthat idea on its own maybe isnât controversial, but probably hasnât engaged my conversational partner in the same way as in your example.
One of the main motivations for me writing this post was to have a mental checklist when discussing EA so that I donât barrel ahead without bringing the other person along for the ride :)
So for me, I think itâs useful to have a framework in my head so I can ensure that these ideas build upon each other:
1. do they want to do some good in the world
2. do they agree that all lives are equally important
3. do they agree that there are some situations where your donation/âtime will make far more of a difference than others
4. do they agree that it is possible/âworthwhile to figure out which interventions are the most effective
5. this stuff is really engaging and there is already a whole movement that you can join so you donât have to do all this on your own!
Thatâs a simplified framework (I just tried to pick out the key beats in your conversation example) but it definitely helps for me to have a framework :)
Ahh thatâs really interesting to know!
But yeah, I definitely would feel a bit manipulative if I didnât feel like I knew the person properlyâI want to present to them ideas that I think theyâd really engage with and would interest them, rather than giving them the impression Iâm trying to force a viewpoint on them
I really liked this section :)
I think this idea of a hustling co-founder means I sometimes have a hard time communicating how âchillâ my life often looks day-to-day