It isn’t an EA project (and his accompanying book has a chapter on EA that is quite critical), but the inspiration is clear and I’m sure there will be things we can learn from it.
For their pilot, they’re launching in the Netherlands, but it’s already pretty huge, and they have plans to launch in the UK and the US next year.
To give you an idea of size, despite the official launch being only yesterday, their growth on LinkedIn is significant. For the 90 days preceding the launch date, they added 13,800 followers (their total is now 16,300). The two EA orgs with the biggest LinkedIn presence I know of are 80k and GWWC. In the same period, 80k gained 1,200 followers (their total is now 18,400), and GWWC gained 700 (their total is now 8,100).[1]
And it’s not like SMA has been spamming the post button. They only posted 4 times. The growth in followers comes from media coverage and the founding team posting about it on their personal LinkedIn pages (Bregman has over 200k followers).
When I translated to English, their 3 “Os” (In dutch not English) were....
“Bulky, underexposed and solvable”
Sounds a lot like important, neglected and tractable to me?
And then they interviewed Rob Mathers from the Against Malaria Foundation...
I completely agree with James that these guys are showing EA a different way of movement building which might end up being effective (we’ll see). It seems like they are building on the moral philosophy foundations of EA, then packaging it in a way that will be attractive to the wider population—and they’ve done it well. I love this page with their “7 principles” and found it inspiring—I would sign up to those principles, and I appreciated that the scout mindset is in there as well.
I do wonder what his major criticisms of EA are though, given that this looks pretty much like EA packaged for the masses, unless I’m missing something.
Yup! The three OOOs are inspired by EA (although a different Dutch foundation should get the credit for the Dutch acronym).[1]
The main criticism can be found in chapter 8 of the book (only in Dutch for now). The subheading for this chapter gives a clue: “What you can achieve by radical prioritization, and how your moral ambition can be completely derailed.” Spoiler: it’s SBF.
The introduction to that chapter closes with the following paragraphs (machine translation):
”I cannot emphasize enough how important this third point is. Rob [Mather] was equally talented through all three phases, but it wasn’t until he took a step back and carefully weighed his options that he started to make a huge difference. So don’t start with the question: ‘What is my passion?’ but with the question ‘How can I contribute the most?’ – and then choose the role that suits you.
Remember: your talent is just a tool, and your ambition is raw energy. The question is what you do with it.
And that also applies to something else. So far I have mainly talked about the waste of talent and ambition. But there is another privilege that we waste on a massive scale: money. In this chapter I will take a step back in time and tell you about my introduction to a young cult that became aware of that. It’s a movement that has taken the pursuit of impact to the extreme. A movement that is always looking for the best financial investments with the highest return for as many people and animals as possible.
Their story is about how much you can achieve through radical prioritization, but it also shows how your moral ambition can be completely derailed.”
His conclusion to the chapter is much more positive about EA, but it’s far from a ringing endorsement.
I think this is a very interesting case study from the SBF saga. Yes, public polling suggests it didn’t damage the reputation of EA as much as some might have feared. However, it has resulted in a loss of support from potential allies, e.g., Bregman. This is a real shame.
The sad fact is that this book might be the main way people in the Netherlands learn about the link between SBF and EA. But I guess there is little we can do about it now.
Yes, although I guess it’s good that people know the link. We shouldn’t hide our mistakes, and I know Bregman likes some of what we do, so there are worse people to have sharing this info with the Dutch population.
Yes, I totally agree it is important not to hide our mistakes. I just wish SBF was presented in the context I see it in: As an unbelievable fuck-up / distaster / crime in a community that is at least trying very hard to do good.
Saying it isn’t an EA project seems too strong—another co-founder of SMA is Jan-Willem van Putten, who also co-founded Training for Good which does the EU tech policy and Tarbell journalism fellowships, and at one point piloted grantmaker training and ‘coaching for EA leaders’ programs. TfG was incubated by Charity Entrepreneurship.
You missed the most impressive part of Jan-Willem’s EA CV—he used to co-direct EA Netherlands, and I hear that’s a real signal of talent ;)
But yes, I guess it depends on how you define ‘EA project’. They’re intentionally trying to do something different, so that’s why I don’t describe them as one, but the line is very blurred when you take into account the personal and philosophical ties.
If EA was a broad and decentralised movement, similar to e.g., environmentalism, I’d classify SMA as an EA project. But right now EA isn’t quite that. Personally, I hope we one day get there.
I think of EA as a broad movement, similar to environmentalism — much smaller, of course, which leads to some natural centralization in terms of e.g. the number of big conferences, but still relatively spread-out and heterogenous in terms of what people think about and work on.
Anything that spans GiveWell, MIRI, and Mercy for Animals already seems broad to me, and that’s not accounting for hundreds of university/city meetups around the world (some of which have funding, some of which don’t, and which I’m sure host people with a very wide range of views — if my time in such groups is any indication).
That’s my way of saying that SMA seems at least EA-flavored, given the people behind it and many of the causes name-checked on the website. At a glance, it seems pretty low on the “measuring impact” scale, but you could say the same of many orgs that are EA-flavored. I’d be totally unsurprised to see people go through an SMA program and end up at EA Global, or to see an SMA alumnus create a charity that Open Phil eventually funds.
(There may be some other factor you’re thinking of when you think of breadth — I could see arguments for both sides of the question!)
I’m thinking about power. I don’t (yet) liken EA to environmentalism because power is far, far more centralised in EA. As you mentioned, this is probably because we’re small and young. I expect this will change in the future.
Thanks! IIRC, we focused on it substantially because a lot of the sign ups for our programmes (e.g. online course) were coming from LinkedIn even when we hadn’t put much effort into it. The number of sign ups and the proportion attributed to LinkedIn grew as we put more effort into it. This was mostly the work of our wonderful Marketing Manager, Ana. I don’t have access to recent data or information about how it’s gone to make much of a call on whether it was worth it, relative to other possible uses of our/Ana’s time.
I’m not suggesting this in any serious way, and I don’t know anything about Bregman or this organization, but an interesting thought comes to mind—I’ve often heard people ask something along the lines of “should we rebrand EA?” and the answer is “maybe, but that’s not probably not feasible.” If this organization is truly so good at growth, is based on the same core principles EA is based on (it might not be beyond the shallow “OOO”), and it hasn’t been aspersed or tarnished by SBF etc—prima facie it might not be so bad for the EA brand to recede and for currently EA invididuals and institutions to transitions to SMA (SoMA?) ones.
Edit: it’s SfMA, I realize now, but I care too much for my bad pun that I’ll keep it there...
I think it’s far too early to make judgements about this groups success yet. Hype on social media is different from deep engagement, a vibrant community and billions of dollars of donations which EA has.
Not a criticism of your post or any specific commenter, but I think it’s a shame (for epistemics related reasons) when discussions end up more about “how EA is X” as opposed to “how true is X? How useful is X, and for what?”.
Yeah I see what you’re saying but I guess if you know the answer to the Q ‘is it EA?’ then you have a data point that informs the probability you give to a bunch of other things, e.g., do they prioritise impartiality, prioritisation, open truth seeking, etc., to an unusual degree? So it’s a heuristic. And given they’re a new org it’s much easier to answer the Q ‘is it EA’ than it is ‘is it valuable’.
But I agree, knowing whether it’s actually useful is always far more valuable. Apart from anything else, just because the founders prioritise things EAs often prioritise, it doesn’t mean they’re actually doing anything of value.
I’m not super closely involved, I just know a few of the key people. That being said: a big name is putting his heart and soul into it, they’ve pulled together a big budget, and they’re very open to doing marketing. They’re also a talented bunch, but I think that’s at least partly downstream from the thing being kicked off by a big name.
EDIT: Oh and they are doing something different from EA, so it might just be intrinsically more popular. But I don’t think that’s the main thing going on here.
If anyone wants to see what making EA enormous might look like, check out Rutger Bregmans’ School for Moral Ambition (SMA).
It isn’t an EA project (and his accompanying book has a chapter on EA that is quite critical), but the inspiration is clear and I’m sure there will be things we can learn from it.
For their pilot, they’re launching in the Netherlands, but it’s already pretty huge, and they have plans to launch in the UK and the US next year.
To give you an idea of size, despite the official launch being only yesterday, their growth on LinkedIn is significant. For the 90 days preceding the launch date, they added 13,800 followers (their total is now 16,300). The two EA orgs with the biggest LinkedIn presence I know of are 80k and GWWC. In the same period, 80k gained 1,200 followers (their total is now 18,400), and GWWC gained 700 (their total is now 8,100).[1]
And it’s not like SMA has been spamming the post button. They only posted 4 times. The growth in followers comes from media coverage and the founding team posting about it on their personal LinkedIn pages (Bregman has over 200k followers).
EA Netherlands gained 137, giving us a total of 2900 - wooo!
When I translated to English, their 3 “Os” (In dutch not English) were....
“Bulky, underexposed and solvable”
Sounds a lot like important, neglected and tractable to me?
And then they interviewed Rob Mathers from the Against Malaria Foundation...
I completely agree with James that these guys are showing EA a different way of movement building which might end up being effective (we’ll see). It seems like they are building on the moral philosophy foundations of EA, then packaging it in a way that will be attractive to the wider population—and they’ve done it well. I love this page with their “7 principles” and found it inspiring—I would sign up to those principles, and I appreciated that the scout mindset is in there as well.
https://www.moreleambitie.nl/grondbeginselen
I do wonder what his major criticisms of EA are though, given that this looks pretty much like EA packaged for the masses, unless I’m missing something.
Yup! The three OOOs are inspired by EA (although a different Dutch foundation should get the credit for the Dutch acronym).[1]
The main criticism can be found in chapter 8 of the book (only in Dutch for now). The subheading for this chapter gives a clue: “What you can achieve by radical prioritization, and how your moral ambition can be completely derailed.” Spoiler: it’s SBF.
The introduction to that chapter closes with the following paragraphs (machine translation):
”I cannot emphasize enough how important this third point is. Rob [Mather] was equally talented through all three phases, but it wasn’t until he took a step back and carefully weighed his options that he started to make a huge difference. So don’t start with the question: ‘What is my passion?’ but with the question ‘How can I contribute the most?’ – and then choose the role that suits you.
Remember: your talent is just a tool, and your ambition is raw energy. The question is what you do with it.
And that also applies to something else. So far I have mainly talked about the waste of talent and ambition. But there is another privilege that we waste on a massive scale: money. In this chapter I will take a step back in time and tell you about my introduction to a young cult that became aware of that. It’s a movement that has taken the pursuit of impact to the extreme. A movement that is always looking for the best financial investments with the highest return for as many people and animals as possible.
Their story is about how much you can achieve through radical prioritization, but it also shows how your moral ambition can be completely derailed.”
His conclusion to the chapter is much more positive about EA, but it’s far from a ringing endorsement.
I think this is a very interesting case study from the SBF saga. Yes, public polling suggests it didn’t damage the reputation of EA as much as some might have feared. However, it has resulted in a loss of support from potential allies, e.g., Bregman. This is a real shame.
I really enjoy imagining they’re talking about objected-orientated ontology.
The sad fact is that this book might be the main way people in the Netherlands learn about the link between SBF and EA. But I guess there is little we can do about it now.
Yes, although I guess it’s good that people know the link. We shouldn’t hide our mistakes, and I know Bregman likes some of what we do, so there are worse people to have sharing this info with the Dutch population.
Yes, I totally agree it is important not to hide our mistakes. I just wish SBF was presented in the context I see it in: As an unbelievable fuck-up / distaster / crime in a community that is at least trying very hard to do good.
Saying it isn’t an EA project seems too strong—another co-founder of SMA is Jan-Willem van Putten, who also co-founded Training for Good which does the EU tech policy and Tarbell journalism fellowships, and at one point piloted grantmaker training and ‘coaching for EA leaders’ programs. TfG was incubated by Charity Entrepreneurship.
You missed the most impressive part of Jan-Willem’s EA CV—he used to co-direct EA Netherlands, and I hear that’s a real signal of talent ;)
But yes, I guess it depends on how you define ‘EA project’. They’re intentionally trying to do something different, so that’s why I don’t describe them as one, but the line is very blurred when you take into account the personal and philosophical ties.
If EA was a broad and decentralised movement, similar to e.g., environmentalism, I’d classify SMA as an EA project. But right now EA isn’t quite that. Personally, I hope we one day get there.
I think of EA as a broad movement, similar to environmentalism — much smaller, of course, which leads to some natural centralization in terms of e.g. the number of big conferences, but still relatively spread-out and heterogenous in terms of what people think about and work on.
Anything that spans GiveWell, MIRI, and Mercy for Animals already seems broad to me, and that’s not accounting for hundreds of university/city meetups around the world (some of which have funding, some of which don’t, and which I’m sure host people with a very wide range of views — if my time in such groups is any indication).
That’s my way of saying that SMA seems at least EA-flavored, given the people behind it and many of the causes name-checked on the website. At a glance, it seems pretty low on the “measuring impact” scale, but you could say the same of many orgs that are EA-flavored. I’d be totally unsurprised to see people go through an SMA program and end up at EA Global, or to see an SMA alumnus create a charity that Open Phil eventually funds.
(There may be some other factor you’re thinking of when you think of breadth — I could see arguments for both sides of the question!)
I’m thinking about power. I don’t (yet) liken EA to environmentalism because power is far, far more centralised in EA. As you mentioned, this is probably because we’re small and young. I expect this will change in the future.
Side comment / nitpick: Animal Advocacy Careers has 13k LinkedIn followers (we prioritised it relatively highly when I was working there) https://www.linkedin.com/company/animal-advocacy-careers/
Oh nice! Congrats with that. Do you know if it was a good use of resources?
Thanks! IIRC, we focused on it substantially because a lot of the sign ups for our programmes (e.g. online course) were coming from LinkedIn even when we hadn’t put much effort into it. The number of sign ups and the proportion attributed to LinkedIn grew as we put more effort into it. This was mostly the work of our wonderful Marketing Manager, Ana. I don’t have access to recent data or information about how it’s gone to make much of a call on whether it was worth it, relative to other possible uses of our/Ana’s time.
Very interesting! We have made exactly the same observation so we’ve started investing in it more, but we’re still learning how best to go about this.
I’m not suggesting this in any serious way, and I don’t know anything about Bregman or this organization, but an interesting thought comes to mind—I’ve often heard people ask something along the lines of “should we rebrand EA?” and the answer is “maybe, but that’s not probably not feasible.” If this organization is truly so good at growth, is based on the same core principles EA is based on (it might not be beyond the shallow “OOO”), and it hasn’t been aspersed or tarnished by SBF etc—prima facie it might not be so bad for the EA brand to recede and for currently EA invididuals and institutions to transitions to SMA (SoMA?) ones.
Edit: it’s SfMA, I realize now, but I care too much for my bad pun that I’ll keep it there...
I think it’s far too early to make judgements about this groups success yet. Hype on social media is different from deep engagement, a vibrant community and billions of dollars of donations which EA has.
Agreed!
This is an insubstantial comment but yes I’m also sad they aren’t calling themselves SoMA.
Not a criticism of your post or any specific commenter, but I think it’s a shame (for epistemics related reasons) when discussions end up more about “how EA is X” as opposed to “how true is X? How useful is X, and for what?”.
Yeah I see what you’re saying but I guess if you know the answer to the Q ‘is it EA?’ then you have a data point that informs the probability you give to a bunch of other things, e.g., do they prioritise impartiality, prioritisation, open truth seeking, etc., to an unusual degree? So it’s a heuristic. And given they’re a new org it’s much easier to answer the Q ‘is it EA’ than it is ‘is it valuable’.
But I agree, knowing whether it’s actually useful is always far more valuable. Apart from anything else, just because the founders prioritise things EAs often prioritise, it doesn’t mean they’re actually doing anything of value.
What do you think is the reason behind such a major growth? What are they doing differently that GWWC or other EA orgs could adopt?
I’m not super closely involved, I just know a few of the key people. That being said: a big name is putting his heart and soul into it, they’ve pulled together a big budget, and they’re very open to doing marketing. They’re also a talented bunch, but I think that’s at least partly downstream from the thing being kicked off by a big name.
EDIT: Oh and they are doing something different from EA, so it might just be intrinsically more popular. But I don’t think that’s the main thing going on here.